jurek: Maybe this will clearify:

http://senseis.xmp.net/?Dame

the point being, that these stones shouldn't have to be explictly played to score. Many Go server client operate this way, for example the KGS client. In this case, dame points are marked and not scored.

onigoroshi: No, that's wrong. How does white have that territory? White would need stones at G8 or G9, J7 or J8, and L1 to completely section of the territory. As it stands, there are holes in white's borders. To count as "territory", you have to be able to connect all of your stones (the edges of the board count as stones for either player) in a complete loop.

jurek: no, white has all the territory *except* for black's 5 points. It's a much larger win than 11.5 to 1. Make sense?

mangue: (s)he didn't resign at the point I'm refering to.. see move 37. We were forced to keep playing...

onigoroshi: Yes, you are correct. If this game were scored after the consecutive passings (move 37), the score would be:
white: 7 territory + 5 captured black stones (B2 & C2 are dead)
black: 6 territory + 0 captured white stones
So white would win 11.5 to 1

yes, but he resigned... so you just win and the score is irrelevant

Salkkuman: why? my opponent shouldn't be able to make any live groups, and we both passed. Now we should score...

onigoroshi: Should't you finish game before end!?

there seems to be a problem when trying to score a game with less than complete borders. Case-in-point:

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1580516

Fwiffo: ah thats even better ... i thought you could count the dead stones, but not the territory underneath them ... :)

Hrqls: you could say they count as TWO points: one point for the stones, and another for the territory under the stone.
When they are alive it is no longer your territory :)

Mirjam: nice :)
but opponents stones in my territory still count as a point dont they ?
(as long as those stones are dead, when they are alive they dont count i guess :))

Hrqls: Additional point:
So playing in your own territory costs you a point. Sometimes you can make your opponent playing in his own territory by threathening to cut some of his stones of of killing his group.

jurek: ah! thanks, thats a very important thing to remember :)

Hrqls: Yes. "Points" are captured enemy stones + empty territory surrounded by your stones. (the stones themselves are not counted)

suppose i have a small territory of 9 spaces (3x3) totally surrounded by own pieces

this will count as 9 points

now i move a piece of myself inside this territory, so there are 8 empty spaces plus the piece i just played ... does the territory only give me 8 points now ?

gringo: generally that doesn't happen, since most everyone here will learn quickly what stones are dead; but if you ran into that situation, the best plan would be to just go on killing those groups you think are dead. Yes, you'll be playing in your own territory, but he'll have to make a move too which will either give you a point (moving in your territory) or take one away from him (moving in his own territory. It would be foolish to carry on this way, but eventually his dead groups will be really dead and the game will be so slanted he'll have no choice but to resign.

If even then he refuses to submit, you can play until there's no dead groups and a bunch of one-square openings left on the board. At that point, nobody can move, there are no contested groups, and the game will be over.

I suppose there could be a case where someone refuses to accept defeat EVER, but I hope they'll be very rare. Perhaps that's a good question...in the off change that someone never accepts the result, how shall the game end? I know of no rules to govern that situation, since generally it would be so distasteful that it does not happen.

headius: Thank you. Ok, I am also refering to a permanent disagreement between the players about dead stones. What does happen then? Message to Fencer? Consider this situation: I pass, my opponent passes, I mark dead stones, he disagrees. Now the program gives the oportunity to prove the situation and it's my turn. But when I now put a stone it will diminuish my points or am I wrong? Maybe I am also just exaggerating and this one point is not important, don't know. Anyway. Thanks for the answer.

gringo: You are correct; if you and your opponent can't agree, you can continue to play it out. Of course, this should generally just clarify what you were disagreeing about, and usually won't change the outcome of the game. You could go on playing like this into impossible circumstances until the board is full of places you can't move, but it's considered bad form not to pass when the game can make no real progress or resign when it's obvious you're going to lose. The general idea is that you pass once you know there's nothing more you or your opponent can do to gain territory (or when you are so far ahead that the game should end now). Your opponent can still keep playing, but if you've calculated things out, it won't do any good.

One question: As far as I know it should not make a difference if both players agree that a game is over and count stones or if both keep on playing.

Am I right, that the passing rule is making a difference here, as in otb games there is no "passing" and a player would be forced to play a stone which will be automatically dead or diminuish his own territory if he refuses to accept that a game has ended or that a certain group of his stones is dead, while on Brainking he could just pass?

I hope I made myself clear, seem to have some difficulties with the english language today

Sensei´s Library is a very nice site (wiki-style) with lots of information for beginners and advanced players.

Have a look at False Eye for an example that looks like it has two eyes, but (as it doesn't) can be killed.

Mirjam: thanks .. i hoped to have found a shortcut to a complicated problem ;)

i was halfway the tutorial when i had leave yesterday .. will continue it this evening or tomorrow :)

more questions will come .. be sure of that ;)

Hrqls:
is it always true then when there is an even empty spaces within a group, then the group is not dead ? if it would have been an odd number of spaces i think the group would be dead ?

No and no. A group needs two eyes to live: having two eyes prevents the opponent to capture the group since he's not allowed to fill in both eyes at once.
Whether the group can make two eyes or not depends on the internal shape of the group and on whose turn it is. Some shapes with 4 empty intersections are alive, some with 6 empty intersections are dead (when it is the opponent's turn).
For exact shapes see the tutorial, since it is difficult to explain by words only. The tutorial is a couple of interactive lessons.
www.goproblems.com is also a good excercise even for trained players.

Hrqls: To surround territory is better: you can get more points with less stones.

In the beginning: claim a empty corner on the 3th or 4th line. Moves on the 1st and 2nd line are nearly always bad untill the endgame.

When attacking a stone you are one move behind, so that's a dangerous strategy.

And: opponents are allowed to have territory also, but not more than you have

first choice : stay close to your opponent to prevent him from claiming too much territory

other option : create your own territory away from him

i think its a bad thing to start with a piece on the border as it can be captured easily (force it into the corner) ... but what about a piece 1 position away from the corner, is that a good start ?

is it better to try to claim territory or to focus on capturing your opponents stones ?

jurek: the M6 question
nice!! thats a good thing to remember ... capturing would make it worse indeed :)

thanks for your answers!
i am slowly learning :)

jurek: the K13 group.

ah! i see the outcome :) nice
is it always true then when there is an even empty spaces within a group, then the group is not dead ? if it would have been an odd number of spaces i think the group would be dead ?
(i didnt try it out yet though :))

SueQ: Fwiffo is right...it will take a little while to understand the eyes concept and life and death of groups, but you'll feel it happening. Go is a beautiful game and a lifelong pursuit, but you can see yourself making progress from the first day.

headius: headius: Another good suggestion in my opinion. I'm thinking of making a list with all the suggestions offered to improve Go.

SueQ: Also you will learn to understand the status of a group much faster: when you understand the two-eyes concept you just have to practise a bit.

Am I the only one that would like to have the board be much larger? Even the 19x19 board is smaller than a typical chess board, and I've got a ton of room for it to grow.

SueQ: The computer will not mark all dead stones for you; you should do your best to mark them on your own, and once both players agree the game is done.

The reason it's done this way even on the fanciest Go servers is that it's often very difficult for the computer to tell whether stones are dead or not. There are various rules that can be followed, but the complexity of the problem exceeds most Go software even today. However, people are generally very good at finding dead stones (compared to computers) and so there's that last bit of manual work required to correctly score the game.

I'm having a hard time understanding dead stones. If I mark stones as dead, the opponent can accept or reject. If your opponent accepts, will the computer automatically accept this as the score even if the players were mistaken? If you don't mark any stones dead, will the computer automatically mark the dead stones for the final score?

Hrqls:
Is the K13 group dead? No. If black tries to invade at L13, white would play at M13. Now, black cannot play at L12 or N13, as it would be suicide. The L13 stone is dead and white lives in that area. If black invades at M13, white plays at L13 and a similar thing happens.

Is the M6 stone dead? Yes, if it were played out, white could capture the black stone. But white cannot make two eyes in that area enclosed by black. Since two eyes are the minimum requirement for life, the white stones are dead. It is in white's best interest to not capture that black stone, as white needs to play more than one stone to capture a single stone; the net outcome for white would be less than just declaring them dead.

If white plays at A and black plays at B, white *cannot* play to the left of A. It would be suicide because the black group still has one liberty to the right of B. This is the same situation as the K13 group in your previous question. (except this is straight 4 versus bent 4)

Hrqls: what about this figuve ? if white plays at A, then black can play at B, but white can then play at the position left of A ? (or is that not allowed because the white group, then existing of 2 stones, will have no liberties anymore ?)

wow! this game seems complicated :)

just finished reading the rules on here, now on to the sites which are posted :)

i have some questions while reading the rules though:
in this position isnt the white group at K13, etc. a dead group ?
isnt the black stone at M6 dead as well ? (it can be captured by white i think?)

Fwiffo: Thanks for helping!

Indeed. Fortunately, I will answer g3 and not pass.

For instance:
w f4, b pass, w g3, b h3, w g2 (atari), b g1, w h2 (atari which black cannot escape)

Fwiffo: Yes, you are right and that is why the computer didn't give me the corner already. Thank you for the enlightment. After that the game is over I think.

It costs black one point. The cut is lethal: f4 pass g3... and there is no good reply left for black
so if black is first he plays f4, if white plays first she plays f4 and black has to cover the cut which cost him 1 point

Fwiffo: I agree and then???

or else lose the j4 stones: so black has to play a stone in his own territory

white should play f4, black has to defend against a cut at g3

Fwiffo: Sure! We need to learn.

Can I say something about the game? I think it's not really over

Fwiffo: Thank you again for your help.

But the other player MUST also make a move (or you would have lost a point by playing in your own territory

In general: if you are not sure you could also just go on playing and 'prove' a group is dead or not

The black group is alive: the black groups are connected because the white stones in between are dead

Because they cannot make a living group there: black can capture with d1 and g1 and white cannot prevent a capture in any way