Übergeek 바둑이: ignorant masses.. now where have I heard that before? No one who talks about the 'ignorant masses' assumes they are part of that group. Self deception makes it easier for the so called thought manipulators to do their thing.

Iamon lyme:

> No one who talks about the 'ignorant masses' assumes they are part of that group.

But aren't we all ignorant in one way or another? I am sure that before the 9-11 attack a lot of Americans knew a lot about Islam. And after 9-11 they know even more.

The same can be said about communism. I am sure that during the Cold War people in western Capitalist countries really made an effort to learn about Marxism. I am sure they all sat down to read Marx, Engles and Lenin, then based on the "reasoning" that you talk about people made up their minds as to whether it was good or bad. Western governments sold anti-communist propaganda, and people really made an effort to analyze and reason what was going on. There never was any fearmongering involved.

Now we have a budget crisis. I am sure the vast mojority of the American public went to analyze the action of the Federal Reserve and the Treasury. They they carefully looked at the budet for the last 30 years and figured out how the money was being spent and where the cuts should happen so as to do what is best for the economy.

The public really, really does it best to educate itself so that they can analyze and reason political and economic events around them. Then when those in power try to sell fear and propaganda, the masses are prepared to say "You fearmongering liars, we got you all figured out!"

Am I a part of the "ignorant masses"? The answer is, we all are. I am the worst kind. I am educated. I read and study politics and economics. I reason theourgh the lies and manipulation. Yet I do nothing to change anything. I am an ignorant hypocrite who is all talk and no action. But then, if I took action, I would probably a revolutionary of sorts, because capitalism can never change unless it is dismantled completely. Then we get Communism, whether Leninist as in the Soviet Union, or the brand sold by Deng Xiaoping in China. Either way, the masses remain disaffected and alienated, and one elite is replaced by another. So I lower my head and say: "Nothing can be done." Those wihtout an ideological compass merely become terrorists and use violence to channel their social discontent. Like the idiot neo-nazi in Norway. Incapable of admitting that the problem is capitalism itself, he fills himself with hatred of socialism and goes on to attack the ruling left-wing party.

The US is not stuck in a debt problem. This is nothing new. For the last 150 years or so bankers have been exploiting developing nations and forcing debt defaults by governments. The only thing that is new is that now it is happening to the one country that used banking to its own advantage for the last 100 years. For most of the 20th century the USA used the debt of other countries to gain political and economic advantage. Now it is America's turn to experience what Third World Countries have experienced for the last 100 years. The USA is now in serious trouble, a lot more serious than people realize. Both political parties are going to come out pointing the finger at each other and spoon feeding their propaganda to the masses. The public won't even realize that the real problem is the fascist Military industrial complex that drains billions from the Treasury, and rich and powerful that give tax breaks to themselves. People won't even realize that BOTH political parties are to blame, because both parties play the same dirty game.

Übergeek 바둑이: I can see where this is going, so just as a heads up maybe I should explain what I mean. First of all, the term 'ignorant masses' isn't just insulting, it's usually used as a means to an end. If you agree with the premise (ignorant masses) you can then assume you are not a part of that group. Thought control is just another way of saying con job. It often works because it appeals to greed (whay you get out if), guilt (do it for the children), or to whatever values and ideals the con man believes is important to you. It doesn't matter if the term ignorant masses is accurate or not, all someone has to do to pursuade you to their way of thinking is to toss the term out and let you do the rest.. obviously, you are not a part of that group, you are part of the group who, whether you know it or not, has taken the first successful step to drawing you into their way of thinking. Being educated and informed is meaningless if all you are dealing with is raw facts and information.. besides, information is usually slanted and 'facts' seem to have little to do with what is true, and are subject to what a majority is willing to believe.

Iamon lyme: We are all ignorant. It's a matter of a finite brain divided by infinite knowledge... In the end we all have something we no no-thing about. Thought control does not mean con job. Some people have to persuade others they are right just to be right, ie a matter of insecurity over beliefs like we have with some religious sects that say 'the word of God/Allah (whatever the name) cannot be questioned.

"Being educated and informed is meaningless if all you are dealing with is raw facts and information.."

No.. there are fields of study such as statistics that aid in dealing with such. How they can be manipulated, that extreme figures tend to be 'blips', and a feel for bull when someone says it means "X" when more factors are implicit that makes "X" untrue, part true or "XYZ"

Iamon lyme:

Straight from the dictionary:

Ignorant:
Lacking education or knowledge. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge. Unaware or uninformed.

> First of all, the term 'ignorant masses' isn't just insulting, it's usually used as a means to an end. If you agree with the premise (ignorant masses) you can then assume you are not a part of that group.

Maybe I should spare the feelings of the masses, and instead of calling them "ignorant", I can use a politically correct term like "knowledge challenged" or "educationally disadvantaged". Those sanitized terms are less insulting, are they not?

Then I said that I am the worst kind of ignoramus. The kind that knows exactly what is going on, and does nothing to stop it. I merely defeat myself intellectually. All that knowledge is useless if I don't know what to do with it. Yes, I am a aprt of the ignorant masses. We all are. Nobody likes to be called ignorant, yet we all are.

Knowledge is a relative thing. I can give you a good example of how the masses are "ignorant" about something, and then take it for granted.

Take plastic bags. Almost every human being on the planet has used a plastic bag at one point or another. People go shopping, put their things in bags, and go home wihtout even thinking whqt a plastic bag is. However, a chemist sees more than just a plastic bag. A chemist will know that it is made of a polymer called polyethylene. This polymer is made by polymerizing ethene gas with a Ziegler-Natta catalyst embedded inside a zeolite support. A chemist can draw chemical structures, and propose reaction mechanisms. He or she knows about the physical properties of the polymer such as the melting point and the glass point. He or she also knwos that Ziegler and Natta won the Nobel Prize in chemistry for their discovery of this family of catalysts that is used to make all plastic bags in the world.

The masses are ignorant in relation to the chemist who knows all about plastic bags.

Likewise, the masses are ignorant about politics and economics. Their sense of knowledge about politics and economics is based on what they see in the media. Newspapers and TV will describe current events, and self-appointed experts (like Glenn Beck) will interpret those events giving them the slant that is convenient either to themselves, or to somebody else.

Yet, when the masses never bother to study the history of political systems and the philosphical basis behind them. People will pass a judgement on demcoracy, socialism, etc. without having taken the time to study or analyze the history and meaning of those things. The perfect example is communism. Just about everybody hates communism, even though all that people know about it is what they heard on TV or on their high school social studies class. I have never met anyone who read Marx's Capital and interpreted according to Hegel's dialectic system. If people did that, it would be impossible for a government like China's to exist, because they ihgt call themselves communist party, but they are nothing more than a form of state capitalism.

Well, ignorant is not an insult. It is merely a fact. All that people need to be happy is enough money for Macdonalds and Walmart. As long as people can consume they have no fighting spirit. Consumer capitalism turns human beings into consuming automatons, always in fear of change or social discontent. So the masses, like a big flock of ostrich, hide their head in the sands of blissful ignorance. It might sound insulting, but it is the sad truth.

The US is about to default its 14.5 trillion dollar debt, and people don't even realize how bad the situation is and how risky it is. Instead of making an effor tto educate the public, politicians are bickering and bringing the world's financial system to the brink of catastrophe. And the masses, lacking knowledge and information, continue blissfully unaware of what impact this could have in their daly lives. This is the perfect example of how the rich and powerful use ignorance to advantage. While the masses sleep, the rich are setting themselves up for huge tax breaks and the fattening of their own pockets at tax payer's expense.