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People keep calling non-move-restricted pente an invalid game. I’d like a clear, concise definition of what makes a game invalid.
(From here forward, I’m going to refer to non-move-restricted pente as fun-pente, for short)
Next, the question has arisen as to WHY we want fun-pente; why we can’t just play ‘official’ pente. I can’t speak for everyone, but..
I like the concept of playing a simple game with so few rules. All the rules are basic & straightforward. None of them apply only to one player. There are no restrictions. It’s not convoluted in any way. In a word, I believe I would say one of the things I like best about fun-pente is that it’s elegant. It’s so simple to understand, yet it can be very complex and challenging.
‘Official’ pente is not that way. It has the move restriction. Yes, the game is more challenging, but the elegance of the rules is gone.
Here’s another reason I like fun-pente better. I like to play with other players who, like me, just like to play pente. There are scores of us who just want to sit down and have some fun. Yes, we want to get better. Yes, we want to improve our game. But we don’t want to read books, study charts, memorize databases, etc. in order to do it. There is nothing wrong with studying the game, in fact, I find myself doing more and more of that, because, I am starting to feel that my game has gotten about as good as it is going to just from playing. Does this mean that, as I continue to get better and better, that I will like fun-pente less and less and ‘official’ pente more and more? Possibly. Does it mean that I will ever think that anyone should avoid fun-pente? Absolutely not!!
Here’s something else. I really dislike DSG’s database. I wish Dweebo would take it down. I can compete with even the top players using it. Does that make me a great player? No, it makes me a great looker-upper. Does it improve my pente skills? No. In fact, it probably makes them worse. Now, I need a crutch to win. Thanks to the DSG database, I have learned some good moves, but I have no idea WHY they are good moves. I will never learn to extend that move to another similar situation. My game will not get better than looking up moves allows it to be. There is no fun-pente database. Playing fun-pente forces me to think up winning lines on my own. That alone makes it worth playing over ‘official’ pente for me.
The bottom line is that I like to play fun-pente because it’s, well, fun. It is more fun than ‘official’ pente to me. No one has given me a reason as to why I shouldn’t play it. Gary, you can tell me until you are blue in the face that it is detrimental to the development of ‘official’ pente, but...
(1) I am not yet convinced that it is (although I will continue to listen to those who want to attempt to convince me that it is). In my case, I probably would have quit playing pente by now if I didn’t have fun-pente to play. It has allowed me to elevate my game and still enjoy playing at the same time. So, in my case, it has been beneficial!
(2) Even if it is, so what. Not to be rude, but, aside from the small minority who are striving to make pente the next chess, who cares? Antichess certainly is detrimental to my chess game. I can’t even ‘see’ a chess board anymore. When I look and try to think what move I’d make, all I see are antichess lines and strategy. (For those you you reading this who are unfamiliar with antichess, the basic idea is to lose all your pieces. Check and checkmate don’t count and if you have a capture available you have to take it. Otherwise it’s the same as regular chess, but the strategies are completely different.) But no one is going to tell me antichess is invalid and that I shouldn’t play it because it’s detrimental to the development of chess!
And finally, in response to harley’s previous post, I am not trying to skirt the rules. I fully understand that ‘official’ pente includes the rule about player 1’s second move, but, I like playing without the restriction better. I’m sure others feel exactly as I do on this point. And besides (I hope I don’t get a lot of flack for saying this) what God came down and said, ”These are the official rules, which must be followed by all players at all times and must never be deviated from!”? Dmitri has indicated that there is consideration for modifying the ‘official’ rules to further reduce the advantage player 1 currently has. Gary has created a variation with alternate move restrictions. Others have too. Clearly there is nothing wrong with changing the rules to a game to create a variation.
Thad, I appreciate your thoughtful input. But I must take issue with something you said.
********* "I like the concept of playing a simple game with so few rules. All the rules are basic & straightforward. None of them apply only to one player. There are no restrictions. It’s not convoluted in any way. In a word, I believe I would say one of the things I like best about fun-pente is that it’s elegant. It’s so simple to understand, yet it can be very complex and challenging.
‘Official’ pente is not that way. It has the move restriction. Yes, the game is more challenging, but the elegance of the rules is gone." ******
please don't get upset with me, but to me, this just seems like you are really stretching to give a reason here.
I can't see how the opening restriction can be considered anything but simple. The restriction IS basic and straightforward. How can you say the restriction is "convoluted?" I just don't agree with that, and I don't see how anyone who has played at least one game with the restriction would find it at all confusing. You say you like fun pente because it is elegant and that pente is not elegant. How is pente not elegant? A simple move restriction in NO way diminishes the elegance of the game; also, I have never known elegant to be synomous with simple.
Dmitri, this is in response to your post timestamped at 16. April 2003, 12:48:43:
Yes, I agree, the reasoning about fun-pente being more elegant than other versions is a minor point, but I included it because it is one reason that I like fun-pente better than 'official' pente. I was answering the question as to why players prefer this variation over others.
It's similar to why one might like one piece of art over another. Or one roller coaster over another. It mostly comes down to a matter of personal taste. A faster, higher, steeper roller coaster might not be preferred over another one, even though it’s “better”.
I am not disputing that ‘official’ pente is not simple or elegant, but fun-pente is simpler and it’s rules are more elegant and that is something about it that I (dare I say we) like.
I still stick with my statement that the move restriction rule is convoluted, albeit only slightly. Which now leaves me asking if something can really be slightly convoluted? ;-)
I’m a math major. Perhaps an English major out there can give me a better word!
Anyway, as you said, these are all minor points. I included them only in an effort to answer the question of WHY I liked fun-pente better.
Oh, you are a felloew math major! That is good to hear, there are not enough of us out there.
I had the same thought when I read your sentence (that something cannot really be "slightly convoluted").
I see what you are saying, but in regard to your analogy about roller coasters and such, it is doubtful that one roller coaster could ever be detrimental to the development of other roller coasters.
Because English is my second favorite school subject, I feel compelled to point out that you might also be misapplying thew ord elegant. Of course, I am being a bit fussy here, and getting caught up in semantics is not worthwhile, but it seems that the application of the term "elegant" to the one form of pente and not the other may be a bit hasty. Something that is elegant could be intricate or simple, and to me, the game of pente is either elegant or not, regardless of wihch opening moves are used.
****** "Here’s another reason I like fun-pente better. I like to play with other players who, like me, just like to play pente. There are scores of us who just want to sit down and have some fun." ********
I have heard this argument many times before. My answer is still the same. 1) for those who just want to sit down and have some fun, why is that not possible with the restriction? I really don't follow this line of reasoning. people can very easily sit down, relax, and have some fun playing the game with the restriction. Just because there is a restriction does NOT mean they have to study books, databases, openings, or become a pente grandmaster. All it means is they have a small restriction on their opening move.
I think a whole lot more is being made of this than it really is. A simple move restriction has been labeled as "the removal of fun from pente," "the removal of elegance from pente," and other similar things. It is just a minor move restriction, nothing more.
*******" Here’s something else. I really dislike DSG’s database. I wish Dweebo would take it down. I can compete with even the top players using it. Does that make me a great player? No, it makes me a great looker-upper. Does it improve my pente skills? No. In fact, it probably makes them worse. Now, I need a crutch to win. Thanks to the DSG database, I have learned some good moves, but I have no idea WHY they are good moves. I will never learn to extend that move to another similar situation. My game will not get better than looking up moves allows it to be. There is no fun-pente database. Playing fun-pente forces me to think up winning lines on my own. That alone makes it worth playing over ‘official’ pente for me. " *********
I am sorry you feel that way. This has not been the case with me, I improved greatly by studying the database. For one thing, I have access to any of the 2000 games I have played on the various sites, so I can go over my games and find where I wnet wrong and improve on them. You say you learn good moves from the databse but not WHY thye are good moves. Why is that? When I study, I will fully explore an intersting looking move so that I DO discover why it is a good move. Sometimes the exact oppositte happens-- I'll realize, "hey, that move isnlt a good one at all, and now I am going to explore options AGAINST this move because I think it is flawed and that I can come up with a new defense for it"
I always tell people that when they review the database, they need to really examine moves, not just say, "Oh, Dmitri King or Gary Barnes won with this move, so I'll make it." That won't improve play, but fully exploring the possiblee follow-up moves WILL.
The database is a great tool for many reasons. I like ti for statistics purposes, I can see how I have fared against certain players. ALso, the database is useful in catching cheats, and we all know who I am referring to (at least anyone who has read the forums at Dweebo's knows).
******** " (1) I am not yet convinced that it is (although I will continue to listen to those who want to attempt to convince me that it is). In my case, I probably would have quit playing pente by now if I didn’t have fun-pente to play. It has allowed me to elevate my game and still enjoy playing at the same time. So, in my case, it has been beneficial! " **********
You may not be convinced, but, players who have not played with the restriction have no idea how to attack at the onset of ag ame WITH thee restriction. with the restriction, you need to make a split 3 or some attack that sacrifices some position. Without the trestriction, a player can make a potential and triangle and need never bother with split 3s and similar attacks. I ahve heard quite a few people say they are better as PLAYER 2 at pente than as plyer 1!!!!!!! WHy? because they learned to play without the restriction, and now they have no idea hwat do to as player 1.
You say playing without the restriction has ELEVATED your game? Inasmuch as I can possibly disdagree with your personal assessment, I will do so! I am NOT disparaging your pente play in any way. Rather, what I mean is, had you played SOLELY with the restriction, you would be better at pente than you are. YOu have had some very creative wins against me; one of the attacks you beat me with remains one of the most devastating attacks I have seen to this day. Based on that and a few other games, I tihnk you would be among the top players if your focus were not diverted by the "fun pente" variant.