Bwild:  I think I kinda brought it up with my posts on honor killings.  The forum is for politics and issues.  Everything seems to filter through politics eventually.  In my post below, the wife of a prominent business man was beheaded when she filed for divorce.  He is a Muslim and his mission in life was counter violent image of Muslims.  I'd say chopping off his wife's head didn't really help eliminate that negative image. 

if they stay...its their choice...get over it.
many men are abused dailey by woman...maybe not physically..but verbally and mentally....same difference in my opinion.   what does this have to do with politics??

Bernice: my mother was never beaten by my father,he never ever raised a hand to her..where you got that impression,I have no clue..
You sit there...they made their bed,so lie in it...you have been there,you KNOW it isn't that easy..I also made the choice...if ya wanna kill me,kill me,GOTTA be better then THIS,for sure...HOW you can sit there tho after LIVING through it and KNOWING how they kill ANY self esteem you had...once apon a time and judge that it is the womans fault for staying is just beyond me

anastasia: I did my dear.I seen my mother beat.Do you call that judging. That's a FACT.

anastasia: I CAN JUDGE AND WILL....................why???
because I have been there, same as you and your mother....she didnt leave and you were brought up in that sort of violent situation and you accept it as norm.....let me tell you ....when I had my head stomped, arms slashed with knives, punched in face until black and blue, only to wake up the next morning to hear..."I'm sorry".....yeah well mate so am I.....I'm outta here.....
I heard the "You leave and I will find you and I will kill you and the 2 kids".....great, then do it.

Know what?????................they are gutless when they are in front of other people......on their own they are the strongest, because they can beat a woman half to death. GUTLESS.

Now don't you tell me not to judge, I have been there and done that.....IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN AGAIN ....to me.

I got the horrible disease out of my system, and so can everybody else. If a person hasnt got the intestinal fortitude to stand up and be counted, then accept your lot, and stop complaining about it.

and here are my pom pom's

Bernice: when you have someone..CONSTANTLY telling you that you are worthless,that nobody will EVER love you,that you will be nothing without him,that if you leave,he WILL find you and he WILL kill you...a person hears that for so long,they WILL start to believe it...top that with being hit for no other reason but that HE had a bad day,the constant put downs and belittling...my mum told me once that it took her 18 years to build up my self esteem and took him less then one year to completely destroy it.
It is VERY easy for you to sit there and say,oh,just leave,oh there are places to go....you know what happened to me Bernice one night when I did try to leave?? do you KNOW!? well,he caught me outside of our apartment,grabbed my head and slammed it repeatedly into a friggin wall untill I almost passed out...thats what happed the first time I tried to leave Bernice...he told me if I did it again,he would kill me...wanna know sometime..I believed he would do it to.
You can sit there and you can judge all you want to but untill you KNOW,untill you have been through it,do NOT judge that woman

Artful Dodger: Yes I partially agree with you....it is the woman who stay for years putting up with the abuse. There is always something/someone to help. The salvation army for starters, and they DO NOT require you to join the church before they will help like a lot of the others do.

Anyway.....Happy Valentines day to those that are happy and/or in love....beaten or otherwise........

Im off out for a special treat

Bernice:There's a psychology behind it and for many women, it's like being caught in a trap.  It seems easy to outsiders that escape is a logical choice.  But it's like having one's legs in a cement bucket.  You can't move.  For many women, there's no place to go but perhaps the biggest deterrent is the fear factor.  Look at how many abusive men go after their ex's and do them harm even to the point of death.  It's easier to live with the abuse than it is the fear of what may happen if you leave.  I think that the abuser breaks their spirit and they have nothing left to help them flee the abusive relationship.   They are frozen like a deer in headlights.

Mousetrap....god help anybody that gets a beating thinking it is love....

Some women don't have the where-with-all or the brains to get out. They take repeated beatings because of "the kids"...what rubbish, don't they realise they are doing the kids harm by staying.

anastasia says....don't judge a woman for the choice she makes.....
I don't judge them I just won't give any sympathy when they choose to stay and get beaten.......you make your bed, you lie in it........

anastasia: I did not get the impression that Gerry was judging.

"GERRY": untill YOU have lived that...don't judge a woman for the choice she makes

Pedro Martínez: I hope not.

"GERRY": Fear or just plain madness. The madness being that they think it is love.

Mousetrap: The most important part of the article:

"The judgments of the courts have no basis in British law, and are therefore technically illegitimate - they are binding only in that those involved agree to comply."

And I add: and will never have and will always be.

Pedro Martínez: It is not so long ago since it was on tv and in the news about a woman who has ran away from her family to escape an honor killing here. It certainly does go on but is not the norm.

"GERRY": For the same reason women born in Peru and Australia do so.

Mousetrap: Why do women born in Canada & USA put up with beatings & say nothing?

Mousetrap: That is certainly not true.

But having said that it is not so long ago that the English court would cut off a child hand for stealing a loaf of bread. We seem to be going backwards not forward.

Artful Dodger: I think you're confusing two terms. Islam and Sharia. I believe most Muslims would condemn and do condemn such honor killings, and most Islamic countries have stopped pursuing the Sharia Law. Unfortunately, there are still lots of "conservative" and "traditionally" thinking people who think of those harsh punishments as the only way.

Artful Dodger: Yes it is the same here. Our goverment still decided to allow some parts of Sharia law to be practised though. It must be fear of having a Muslim uprising if they didnt.
I hope Sharia law never extends into our courts from Muslim parliament.

Mousetrap:Even in the US there have been many honor killings.  The women don't allow it.  But they don't have a lot of choice.  In the Eastern cultures, it's an oppressive situation and they either submit, or die.  There is no fighting back.  In the US, you have to be willing to break totally with your family and basically go into hiding.  CNN has done several stories on this issue and it's a serious problem that's not likely to go away anytime soon.

Artful Dodger: Lol yes very interesting! It is hard to believe too that some Muslim women allow themselves to be treated like that and actually believe it is right but I am sure it is true. The only way to stop it would be if enough women started saying no but they would have to be quick before they got beheaded or whatever.

Mousetrap: In Islam, beating one's wife is not only permitted, but encouraged for the sake of strengthening the family and maintaining here honor and modesty.  We in the West oppress women.  An interesting way of looking at things:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb6D9G4gpW8&feature=channel

Artful Dodger: Now that is a classic case of one law for them and one law for us or "do as I say and not as I do"
I bet this goes on a lot more than we ever hear about.

2004: Buffalo, NY Muslim activist Muzzammil Hassan founds TV
station to combat negative stereotyping of Muslims.

2009: Buffalo, NY
Muslim activist Muzzammil Hassan beheads wife

What a difference 5 years makes.  Seems that since his wife had filed for divorce, Muzzammil had to perform an honor killing so he chopped her head off.  Nice touch Muzzammil.  That's sure to get those of us in the West to see Muslums in a different light. 

Get this:

"Friends expressed shock on Friday that the founder of a Muslim TV channel — which he launched in order to counter violent images of Muslims"
http://www.buffalonews.com/cityregion/story/579324.html

From the article:

"I cannot believe it — I know them both well," he said Friday. "I cannot get a handle on this."

It would be a mistake to link an act of domestic violence to the couple's religion, he added.

"There is no place for domestic violence in our religion — none," Qazi said. "Islam would 100 percent condemn it."

Yeah, let's not blame the religion.  Just because honor killings is common practice, let's not jump to conclusions.  Islam wouldn't condemn this act since it's Islam that promotes it.  In Islam, if you are a woman and you are raped, you just may find yourself beheaded.  That's right, the family's honor is at stake here.  You had sex outside of marriage and that calls for your head.

Here's a picture of the couple.  She had an instrumental role in the creation of BridgesTV. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxnlvyCge4k

The Usurper: So I see lmbo!
I dont know anything about American politics. Its very interesting reading this board though lol.
I think goveraments are the same all over the world. Only some are more corrupt than others. It does,nt matter who gets in most look out for number one.

People are dying all over the world & what for NOTHING other than GREED

Czuch: If all the bible thumpers & goverments of there own countrys.Would help there own.Then that would be a start to get this whole world working together.In stead of blowing all that money on BS

The Usurper: I am not a bible thumper....

my point to you again, is not that some may need the care from others, but where do you see in our constitution that it is the responsibility of the federal government to give this kind of care?

It comes down to democrats/socialists, who believe the federal government should be more and more responsible for the people, and take more and more of our money to do it or conservatives/libertarians, who believe that the federal government should have a very limited role in our lives.

There are many ways in which a society can and should take care of its poor and others that need caring for... but where is it written that society = federal government?

Also, like AD was trying to point out, it is more likely that the so called bible thumpers give far more to charitable concerns than you and your socialist friends ever thought about giving?

Just re reading some of your comments... it is clear that you have a complete misunderstanding of our (conservative if you will) views.... is it not possible for us to have compassion yet still believe that it is not the federal governments responsibility????

Its really that simple, we want to take care of the poor, we just dont want our federal government to be the solution!

Mousetrap: Also thank you for your post. It is the only one in the last 7+ hours not from the opposition. lol

Mousetrap: I agree! There is a man who exemplified Christ. :o)

The Usurper: There is something to be said for Gandhi when you put it like that lmbo!

I brought religion into this discussion because, when considering the case of the poor, the Bible has a lot to say about it. Also, most Republicans are Bible-thumping Christians, are they not? So it applies. And one would think the Bible's teachings & sentiments on this subject would influence their attitudes, political as well as private. It would appear, however, that other Biblical themes (particularly the Mosaic ones) get most of their attention.

I don't even claim to be a Christian. I ought not to know more about the Bible than most of these fundamentalist-types. And I didn't write the Bible, so I can't take the blame for what it says. If Jesus and his disciples were bleeding hearts, or too lazy and irresponsible to work, as O'Reilly would have it, or not worthy of compassion, as Limbaugh suggests, or perhaps ought to be kicked around a bit, as Beck thinks....or if the poor, rather than being blessed or held in esteem, are the scum of the Earth which deserved to be washed away by Katrina because they didn't have enough sense to leave the city...well, I can't help it if the Bible you purport to believe in & abide by rather condemns your point of view.

But when did the "man of sorrows" ever catch a break?

Artful Dodger: That is like asking me how many women I slept with in 2008 or, more to the point, to do my alms before men. And it is, naturally, designed as a personal attack in lieu of a defensible argument. In any case, it is private and I'll keep it to myself. I have no trophies big enough for your display case. Let God be the judge. And I'll stick to my position.

The Usurper:Good then you won't mind telling us the answers to the questions I asked.  How much money do you give away a year.  What's the percentage.  How many children do you support and from which organizations.  And what is the average giving of republicans?

I'll expect answers to these questions. 

Artful Dodger: It's nevertheless the truth, at least according to Jesus' way of reckoning. And if I, personally, never gave a penny to anyone, it certainly wouldn't nullify the arguments I am making.

Nite Dan. As always, been fun....

 

 

The Usurper:No

They sound like followers of Jesus.  Next question

  

How many children do you sponsor in either world vision or Compassion International?

The Usurper:that's a cop out answer. 

Artful Dodger: If I gave away "two mites," it would be more than the average Republican. :o)

Artful Dodger: Do the early Christians sound like Capitalists to you? I said it sounds like Socialism, at least more like Socialism than Capitalism. And it does. It was more collectivist than individualist. I also did not argue that I condone Socialism, per se. Republicans accuse Democrats of being Socialists every other minute or so. Yet the Republicans surely support Corporate Welfare & the Military-Industrial-Complex, which amounts to Socialism for the rich. It also amounts to the slaughter & impoverishment of untold numbers of innocents abroad. So again, I fall back to my earlier claim, that Republicans, as a unit, and our Government, as an entity, despise the poor and serve the rich. For which you will have to answer to due time. :o)

What percentage of money do you give away to the needy each year and where does your money go?

For that matter, how much do you give away?

Jesus is here

give me a break.  Dude, finish school!  Suck it up!  Keep flippin burgers.  And you'll be ok.  But don't ask for a handout.

If I owe the poor anything, it is between me and GOD and NOT between me and the government.  And it certainly isn't any of your business what others do with their money.  And the early Christians weren't socialists.  You are misrepresenting their views and that amounts to lying.  I won't respond to any more of that sort of nonsense.  

Czuch: If we would provide as much for the infrastructure (which would mean jobs and a higher standard of living across the board) as we do for the common defense, I would have no argument. That we spend more than the rest of the world combined each year on the military budget, while the interior of our country rots, speaks volumes about our priorities. We would rather blow someone up in Iraq than help a drowning man in New Orleans.

And frankly, this term, "common defense", is a misnomer. We are certainly an aggressor nation. We are a greedy empire which wants more. "Defense" is the least of the Pentagon's, or the Federal government's, priorities. I see few if any Republicans, here or elsewhere, bemoaning this fact or taking issue with the Bush administration over it (or now, over the aggressive posture of Obama in Afghanistan).

It seems pretty clear to me that contempt outweighs compassion across the board, at home and abroad. I believe those verses apply directly to the attitudes of most Republicans, some Democrats, and some of the posters on this board.

The Usurper:You're over generalizing and misquoting.  But here goes:

Expecting the "poor" (whatever that really means for it is different from person to person) to earn their bread is NOT despising them. But it may be that their laziness is despised.

*[Doesn’t
O’Reilly mock the poor by generalizing that they are lazy &
irresponsible, and by equating them primarily with those who “drink gin
all day,” “smoke reefers 24/7,” “dropped out of school,” and are “too
lazy to hold a job”? Does not Glenn Beck mock the poor by misquoting
Benjamin Franklin to say, “We should make the poor uncomfortable and
kick them out of poverty”?]

No  and
No (and one source I read puts that quote in Franklin's autobiography)

Having pity on the poor doesn't equate with paying their way.  People who are stuggling should be helped.  But only if they help themselves in the process.  Otherwise let them live on the streets.


*[This
is gonna be a tough experience for Rush Limbaugh and like-minded
individuals, i.e., the hard right Republicans, the Hannitys, the
O’Reillys, etc.; but the filthy democrats who serve the same masters
are in the same boat.]

Who need God when they have the Usurper to judge them?

O'Reilly probably gives away more money percentage wise than you'll ever give.  He's always giving away money.  It's on his website if you took the time to really look.

*[There’s
our credit system. Do you think Solomon is applauding this state of
affairs, and not rather pronouncing judgment upon it? It seems that he
is finding fault with the good ‘ole American way.]

Um, hate to break this to you but Solomon is dead. 

*[I
take it Solomon believes that some people are robbed simply because
they are poor and can’t defend themselves. Not much has changed.]

Yeah, according to you then it is better to rob me and take my money and give it to my lazy neighbor.

Proverbs 28:3 A poor man that oppresseth the poor is like a sweeping rain which leaveth no food.

*[This is like being a poor Republican…there’s a real anomaly here.]

You don't know what you are talking about.  YOu can't name one socialist country where everyone prospers.  Only in a capitalistic system can the average man "live the dream."


*[You who love the American economic system, seem to me to despise the One Who inspired Solomon to write these words.]

Cheap shot and will be ignored.

*[Those
who argue that opportunity abounds, that only the lazy don’t succeed,
seem to me to “regard…not to know” the cause of the poor.]

You don't know either.  And you haven't even defined what you consider "the poor"


Proverbs 31:20 She stretcheth out her hand to the poor; yea, she reacheth forth her hands to the needy.

*[This is what the Virtuous Woman does.]


um yeah Greg.  So give away your own money and leave the money of others alone.  You want to steal the money of others and give it to the poor. 


Acts
2:44 -45 And all that believed were together, and had all things
common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all
men, as every man had need.

That's right, they didn't expect a hand out from the government.  So this verse proves your position is extremely weak. 

*[The early Christians don’t look
like Capitalists to me. More like Socialists, if I may say so. They
worked hard, then spread the wealth.]

No.  They shared in their communal living.  You promote the government taking money from hard working people and spreading it around.  That is theft.


*[Can you
imagine what the Repubs would say about these people today?
Centralization & distribution of wealth so that all may benefit as
needed…that is Socialism!]

Socialism has always failed as a government system.  And you are mistreating all these texts.

You have butchered the biblical texts.

You have misapplied their meaning to fit your bias.

You have misrepresented the views of others (built up strawmen and ripped them down).

Your arguments are meaningless with non-Christians.