Bernice:  Great, you ask me a question and now I have to answer so now I'm up to 20 posts for today and that means I'm still over 50 percent!  Oh well, now that I'm here, I have an answer.

You see, the Australian government set those fires.  The current theory is that the fires were set deliberately but the "who" isn't known.  Likely it was secret government operatives with orders coming from the highest branch of the military.  The reason?  Unknown at this point.  But like all good conspiracies, we'll just keep digging until we get to the bottom and find the "truth" (or find some reasonable explanation that we can adopt--which ever comes first).  And like all those committed conspiracy theorists, we will explain away any and all official explanations and only accept those explanations that support our conspiratorial views.

Or something like that.  ;) 

Bernice: To answer your questions:

1. Yes, I was a naughty boy a few years ago and a part of the KM scandal. As a matter of fact, I was the first to expose the scandal, and to publicly apologize for my part in it. I certainly am not, and never have been, a saint.

2. I do not believe I am trying to force my opinions on you either now or in the past. I am arguing a case, which is a type of persuasion, certainly. But my appeal is to facts and to evidence, not to a demand that you think like I do simply because I am a voice of authority (which I don't pretend to be).

3. I have said nothing about the Holocaust. Nor have I rendered an opinion on the little green men in my ashtray Dan alluded to. I am debating the truth about 9/11. I have also indicated my opinion on the assassination of President Kennedy, but that has not been my focus or the main topic of debate.

4. I am very much trying to "prove" my position on the 9/11 conspiracy, by appeals to logic, to common sense, to evidence contained in books, by providing links, by answering objections to the best of my ability, etc.

5. This morning I copied & pasted information on polls about the Kennedy assassination & 9/11. To the best of my immediate recollection, those are my only two copy-&-pastes, and I clearly indicated them as such. If I have pasted before, it should be clear. The vast majority of everything you have read in my posts are my own words.

6. I agree that my previous shinanigans with the KM does potentially damage my credibility. I wish that I had not behaved so badly, but I did. Nevertheless, there is nothing I am asserting in my 9/11 argument that cannot be verified through the links I have provided & others, or through your own independent research.

7. In the end, the truth about 9/11 does not stand or fall on my own qualifications as a debater, or on my moral character, which naturally is mixed. It stands on facts alone. And my KM experience, naughty & sometimes wrongfully hurtful to others as it was, does not disqualify me either from researching the facts about 9/11, reporting some of the results about my research here, or urging others to research for themselves what I consider to be the central political event of our generation.

Could you people start posting some stuff cuz my daily percentage is nearly 50 for today and I gotta get it down.  With this post I'm probably over 51!  Any thoughts on this:

From the Cafferty File: Is stimulus plan “theft”?

??

(ps, we need 165 more posts to bring me down to my 10 percent quota so please hurry as I have a bunch more copy/pastes and links to share.)

Thanks  ;)

Artful Dodger: I wonder what the theories will be about the fires that are burning good Australian residents to death will be. I guess it could be taken as terrorists but why do it in the wooded areas (forests) do it in the cities where more people will cop it. Whole towns are burned and gone, small places with only a few hundred residents....cities with hundreds of thousands would have been more sense if it had of been terroristic. IMO

In The News:

For many months Operation YouTube Smackdown has effectively shut down almost 15 thousands terrorist videos posted on Youtube and this has caused a lot of anger among the cyberspace terrorists. Operation YouTube Samckdown is a group of patriots who took upon themselves to prevent spreading terrorist propaganda on Youtube. We have an ongoing thread here on FR about this operation and it is posted by Freeper StarCMC.

Bernice:Kennedy was killed in 63 and they are still arguing about the facts of his assassination.  It will never end.  I suspect the same will be true of 911.  No matter how much is said, and even if an independent investigation were conducted, unless the results match the conspiracy theorists agenda, they will not be satisfied.  Said another way, unless the world agrees with their point of view, they will continue to press on ad nauseum. 

Artful Dodger: well that will make you nd the CCP king to go tomorrow as well....one funeral to attend

Artful Dodger: no perhaps they dont know about the KM group....true.....

and if they want to keep 911 alive and debating something that will outlive all of us well ..do so I guess.

He has his rights to voice them but it gets a bit mundane and same ole same ole when it is the same ole same ole......oh well

Bernice:  I know, I suck at it.  I'm not sure how to calculate the 10% but I do have a calculator in my accessories folder.  That may help.  I'm still trying to google for the rule but can't find it.  I'll probably die tomorrow anyway as I've used up my cut and paste quota by now. 

Bernice: He has the right to voice his opinions on matters he find important to him.  And many people don't know about the KM group so it's not relevant to them.  Maybe awsome and a few others share his interest in 911 and if so, they can discuss it and debate it all they want.  I'll stay out of it as I've made my thoughts clear on the matter and there is nothing else to say.

Artful Dodger: he/she is the “invisible hand,” not the wannabe star


hehehehehhe..................see.....you just sit there and moderate....dont you DARE to have a conversation on your discussion board....you are a lousy mod. ROFLMBO

The Usurper: I have just one question.......aren't you the same Ursurper that tried and nearly succeeded in bringing havoc to this site a few years ago with your "crap" with the TNP = take no prisoners rubbish and all the "taking" over of all games?

How do you expect to be someone who is considered creditable after all that rubbish. If you weren't the instigator then you were one of the leaders....

CCP is something anybody can do and I ask for YOU to prove what you are saying about the holocaust, 911, and anyother thing you are debating.

Is it me or are you trying to force your opinions on us as you have been known to do in the past?

awesome: 

Artful Dodger:Wouldn't you think a good moderator would account for maybe 10% of the speaking time of a discussion forum ?--he/she is the “invisible hand,” not the wannabe star. In my opinion a good mod is like a good umpire. Never leave the game having the players and fans talking more about the umpire than the game.

ps * are you aware that when a person is born they are only given an "x" amount of copy/pastes to use in their life and then it's over ?

Artful Dodger: I would prefer to look past your insults and tiresomeness to get to the heart of your objections, if I can, so that I can respond to them. :o)

Artful Dodger: "Not one shred of evidence"?

Actually, there is massive amounts of evidence that:

1. The invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq were fully planned before 9/11.
2. The goal was control of the oil in Central Asia by a permanent military presence there.
3. That the only ingredient missing was "a new Pearl Harbor" to galvanize the American people into enthusiasm for war & a willingness to finance it.
4. That pre-9/11 investigations by FBI agents into the alleged hijackers were obstructed from above.
5. That NORAD failed to follow Standard Operating Procedure on 9/11, essentially allowing the attacks to occur.
6. That the Twin Towers & WTC-7 came down by controlled demolition.
7. That Flight AA77 did not strike the Pentagon.
8. That Flight 93 was shot down by the military.
9. That the Pakistani ISI (which is connected closely with our CIA) and the Saudi Royal Family (these are our two so-called "Allies") were heavily involved in the implementation of the plot.
10. That many of the so-called hijackers are reported to be alive and well.
11. That the Bush administration strongly resisted an official investigation.
12. That further investigations of official complicity have been obstructed from high levels of government, including the FBI.
13. That the 9/11 Commissions Report contains numerous distortions & glaring omissions, and is a revisionist document at its worst.

Furthermore, each of these points can be subdivided, as evidence is supplied through news reports, eye-witness accounts, expert analysis from various fields, etc., to bolster them. And these are only the points that occurred to me now as I type.

Furthermore, this evidence is easily available to everyone, through the internet, through books & DVDs. The internet is a great source because there are exhaustive compilations of information gleaned from newspaper reports, magazine articles, interviews, etc.

The real issue with you, Dan (as I see it), is that you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that any of these sources of information has provided or can provide "a shred of evidence". And if it is not possible beforehand, then why bother to look at it? I would argue that that is an a priori argument which is prima facie untenable.

Incidentally, for those who are not opposed to "all the google searches", a google search on "evidence 9/11 is an inside job" is profitable.

And here are two links. The first is Patriots Question 9/11. There you can quickly & conveniently read what has been said against the official theory of 9/11 by...

160+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
660+ Engineers and Architects
170+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
350+ Professors Question 9/11
230+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
190+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/


The second link is One Dollar DVDs. Here the organization, Veterans for 9/11 Truth (of which I am a member), supplies a plethora of documentaries about 9/11 and other subjects at the affordable rate of a dollar a DVD.

http://www.v911t.org/21_DVDs_Truth.php

On April 19, 1993, the American Jewish Committee released the latest survey on Americans’ knowledge of the Holocaust. This poll was taken by the Roper organization; it interviewed 993 adults and 506 high school students. The results showed that more than 1 in 5 Americans think that it is possible that the Holocaust never happened.

For you math whiz's out there, that's 20 percent.  A significant number.  So should we spend our time finding out the "truth" surrounding the Holocaust?  And did you know that over 25% of Israeli Arabs say Holocaust never happened.  Perhaps we're on to something here. 

It would seem that an increasing number of people believe that the Holocaust never happened.  It was a conspiracy perpetuated by high ranking government officials for making palatable the giving of the Land Of Israel to the Jews.  This fact must be significant (since it's an "increasing number" and therefore we should see out the truth).

The Usurper:If I'm insulting and tiresome (isn't that insulting to say that???) then perhaps you can just ignore me. 

Tuesday: Thank you for recognizing my attempt to keep this debate civil. In my opinion, it is too important to be approached in any other way. If I am wrong, there are legitimate ways of convincing me and/or others. I agree that Artful Dodger is insulting and, yes, can be tiresome. Neither of these strengthen his position. That does not mean, in itself, that he is wrong, but he could certainly use a more able ally to help support his position. I really appreciate your post. :o)

Tuesday: *I dance a lil dance around you....do,do,do,do..(thats me singing) amen!

The Usurper:What they do indicate, however, is that a large and growing number of people, for some reason, doubt the official stories.

So what?   That is a meaningless fact.

My argument is that, the more one investigates, the clearer the picture becomes of government complicity in both the Kennedy assassination & the events of 9/11, which results in a continuous growth of awareness among the citizenry as information spreads.

Again, more nonsense.  But you give yourself away.  You are committed to your conclusion before all the fact are in.  And you cherry pick what you accept and what you reject.   In reality, you have no facts to stand on.  And you have a host of experts against you.  There's not one shred of evidence that supports your silly notion that 911 was an inside job.   In spite of all the google searches you've done, you have no proof.  There is nothing I have seen that leads me to believe there is any truth in your claims.  All I see is whacked out theories on the order of little green men living in your ash tray. 

Artful Dodger: The poll numbers are not an argument based on direct evidence of conspiracy. What they do indicate, however, is that a large and growing number of people, for some reason, doubt the official stories. Presumably this doubt is based on something, either rightly or wrongly. Your argument is that they are all mentally deranged, and we now have an epidemic new psychological disorder (a diagnosis not made by professional psychologists, however). My argument is that, the more one investigates, the clearer the picture becomes of government complicity in both the Kennedy assassination & the events of 9/11, which results in a continuous growth of awareness among the citizenry as information spreads.

Charles Martel: yeah...because Bush's speach about OBGYN's practicing their "love" on women was soooo much better

Charles Martel: I'm not sure of your point.Todd and Garrett represent the left and right spectrums of cable news,I don't see how his wanting questions from both these reporters represents anything but fairness

Pedro Martínez: You make a good point and I shouldn't lump all conspiracy theories together.  I happen to agree that global warming is a fraud and likely there are elements that are perpetuating the global warming myth for personal and corporate gain.  I have no idea how widespread any global warming conspiracy could be.  I see it as more a select few reactionsists, reacting to the normal global temperature fluctuations, and then many others simply jumping on the band wagon.  It's nice to belong to a cause even if it is based on bad science. 

   http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123431418276770899.html Staged press conferences??? In my opinion He screwed even that up!!!  I like the "nurses can't even read doctors handwriting on prescriptions"  line as a reason as why health care is screwed up .also how he answered most questions with ,,"doing nothing is not an option" even though the reporters were addressing single topics....  he's dropping fast......and don't call me a racist, Its all fair

Artful Dodger: There are a few conspiracy theories I do support (like this one). I believe it's not right to condemn a "theory" only because it's labeled a conspiracy one. The competent authorities should investigate every single possibility (in the case of conspiracies involving any criminal actions) and provide the results thereof. If they fail to do so, I think a common man has every right to believe that any such conspiracy theory might be true.

The Usurper:   Since when did polls become scientific data?  Those are perhaps the weakest points in your argument. 

I saw a poll where two thirds of the people think that one third of the people are ignorant idiots.:

Bernice: I thought subjects were allowed to be changed? my bad

By THOMAS HARGROVE
Scripps Howard News Service
More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.
The national survey of 1,010 adults also found that anger against the federal government is at record levels, with 54 percent saying they "personally are more angry" at the government than they used to be.
Widespread resentment and alienation toward the national government appears to be fueling a growing acceptance of conspiracy theories about the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Suspicions that the 9/11 attacks were "an inside job" _ the common phrase used by conspiracy theorists on the Internet _ quickly have become nearly as popular as decades-old conspiracy theories that the federal government was responsible for President John F. Kennedy's assassination and that it has covered up proof of space aliens.
Seventy percent of people who give credence to these theories also say they've become angrier with the federal government than they used to be.
Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."

"Only 10 Percent Believe Oswald Acted Alone

(CBS) Thirty-five years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, conspiracy theories and charges of an official government cover-up resonate with the American public, according to a new CBS News poll.

Most Americans still remain suspicious of the lone gunman conclusion of the Warren Commission Report and skeptical that the truth will ever be learned. Only one in 10 Americans believes that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. More than seven times as many think Oswald did not act alone.

The same large majority of Americans believes there was an official government cover-up. By 74 percent to 13 percent, the public thinks there was an official cover-up to keep the public from learning the truth about the assassination."

The Usurper:  Or you truly have diseased thinking.  A sheeple.

Artful Dodger: The second line of defense for those who eschew real debate, which is really an extension of the first line, is to accuse others who point out unpleasant truths of being insane or mentally ill. Again, it ignores facts & begs the question of what the evidence indicates. And it will be an effective strategy only insofar as its recipients have not informed themselves sufficiently on the subject under discussion...in this case the truth about 9/11. It will always be effective to admirers of Bill O'Reilly. lol

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!

I want to forgo the niceties of the hot towel and go straight for the jugular on this one. My goal here is not to bust any of these four conspiracy theories; that has all been done much more effectively elsewhere. What I am trying to do here is to build a chain of evidence to show a progressively deteriorating epidemic of world-wide insanity, of truly diseased thinking -- not just a misunderstanding or difference of opinion but real, diagnosable mental illness. I want to get to that disease in a minute -- and the cause of it too -- but first let's examine what some people claim to believe in and the mountains of sand one has to carry in order to bury one's head so deep.

He really could have stopped here and that would have been enough for me.  I really think he captures it best in two words:  "diseased thinking."  That pretty much says it all.  So what do these diseased thinkers come up with? 

*We never landed on the moon, we faked it in a hollywood studio. 

*Oswald was framed.  President Kennedy was shot from the front but the body was secretly taken from Air Force One to Walter Reed Army Hospital where extensive surgery 'reversed' the trajectory of the wounds to make it look like poor patsy Oswald was the real assassin.

*The DaVinci Code

*Chemtrails: New World Order depopulation agenda

* Stephen King killed John Lennon. (Steve Lightfoot)
* WWII was staged. It never really happened. The Illuminati employed elaborate special effects, stage magic, and phony journalism to scare the world into pacifism. (Donald Holmes)
* The doomed Franklin Expedition was sent to the Arctic not only to find the Northwest Passage, but to secretly investigate UFO sightings that had been reported since the 1700s. The men were captured, experimented upon, and eaten by giant aliens. (Jeffrey Blair Latta)
* The 1939 War of the Worlds radio broadcoast was a psychological warfare study funded by C.D. Jackson on behalf of the Rockefeller Foundation, designed to find out how Americans would react to an enemy invasion. Funny... in a trailer for his mockumentary F is for Fake, Orson Welles did say the WoW broadcast had "secret sponsors". (Daniel Hopsicker)
* Aspartame, flouride, genetically modified foods, and vaccines are used specifically to keep us sick and open to suggestion, and/or as part of a secret depopulation plan designed by the world's elite.


Can you add to this list?  ;)

Bernice: I'm not preventing you from talking about Obama or anything else you'd like. :o)

The Usurper: I thought we were talking politics and Obama....you arrive out of the wild blue yonder (how is Mindy by the way) and start on 911....life does go on, in some places :)

Bernice: Most of my posts have been been specifically designed to answer objections that others have posted. None of my posts have been designed to please you. :o)

Bernice:

lets change the name of this fellowship to "Usurpers 911 theories"

Bloody hell isn't anybody going to put it to rest and get on with life??

Do we have any 2nd world war veterans, or holocaust survivors, or similar? We probably do but they let things rest.

sheeeeesh!!

Jim Dandy:  I've never heard of him and now I know why.  He's one of the best arguments against any and all conspiracy theories.  IMO.  When I run into people like him, (Rosie is in his league) I know to stay away from anything they say. 

Snoopy:  She's an unstable woman.  I think the state of California needs to consider if she's able to care for those kids.  Clearly she's not.  No money.  No home.  No nothing.  And the doctor that implanted those 8 embryos should have his licenses revoked. 

Tuesday: Thank you. :o)

An argument is made that, if 9/11 was an inside job, why have whistleblowers not exposed it? And since they haven't, 9/11 must not have been an inside job. It is also contended, in this argument, that whistleblowing is a fairly easy, straightforward procedure.

In answer, first a few questions:

1. How many years did the Manhattan Project operate to produce the Bomb, before the public became aware of its existence? And how many people were involved in the project?

2. How many decades did the NSA operate before it became public knowledge, even though its budget was far larger than the budget for the CIA?

3. How many decades did Operation GLADIO perform its clandestine functions in Western Europe, before it was exposed in a BBC Documentary in the early '90s? Have you even heard of Operation GLADIO?

Here are some further questions to consider:

4. How likely is it that the major news media, which are owned by a handful of corporations owned & operated by wealthy men with a clear stake in how news is reported (or not reported), would go out of their way to report on high crimes, from which they garner profits in multitudinous ways?

5. How likely is it that a Black Ops soldier, say one who helped plant explosives in the WTC, would step forward & confess, man of conscience that he assuredly must be?

6. How likely is it that a government official involved either in the planning or the events of 9/11, or else in its cover-up, will suddenly gain a conscience and expose himself or herself to prison, or worse?

Having asked these questions, a simple google search on 9/11 whistleblowers is nevertheless very profitable & revealing. Here are some examples:

1. 9/11 Investigation Spawns Whistleblower Movement (a response to the 9/11 Commissions Report)

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/0904/091304c1.htm


2. Ming the Mechanic: 9/11 Whistleblower Fired (this is about Kevin Ryan, the head of the Environmental Health Laboratory Div. of Underwriter's Laboratory, which is the lab that originally certified the steel used in WTC construction)

http://ming.tv/flemming2.php/__show_article/_a000010-001420.htm


3. The Bombshell Memo: FBI Agent Coleen Rowley's Memo to FBI Director Robert Mueller

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020603/memo.html


4. Where are the 9/11 Whistleblowers? (an essay)

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/roberts/index.html


5. The Case of Sibel Edmonds, FBI Translator

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2008/01/25/on_fbi_whistle_blower_sibel_edmonds


6. Richard Andrew Grove, employee in the WTC & on the scene

http://www.freewebs.com/abigsecret/Grove.html


7. The 9/11 Whistleblowers (a whole slew of online interviews by Alex Jones, with the likes of Andreas Von Buelow, former German Defense Minister & Minister of Technology; Michael Meecher, former UK Environment Minister; FBI Special Agent Robert Wright; David Schippers, the prosecuting attorney in the Clinton impeachment trial; Sibel Edmonds, FBI Translator, etc. etc.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/Pages/230904_whistleblowers.html


The biggest obstacle, perhaps, in impartially weighing evidence about 9/11 is the deep-seated & well-founded fear of the terrible implications if 9/11, in fact, was an inside job. It would require us to reevaluate so many things about our worldview that we formerly took for granted. It would expose us to knowledge of a danger far greater than we previously suspected. Most importantly, it would call on us to take a stand against very powerful entities with a formidable arsenal of weapons, both technological & psychological.

Nevertheless, truth matters, and truth is truth. And it is through ignorance that people are enslaved. What's more, people matter...the 3,000 who died in the attacks, and the many more thousands who have died since & are still dying at the hands of those who used those attacks as a pretext for an imperial agenda.