Übergeek 바둑이: Just take it as he has no argument.

As obviously he doesn't and cannot if he was playing on a level field. At the moment all he's doing is twisting and changing the conditions of proof to avoid answering.

Artful Dodger: Are you talking about all those posts you deleted? If so.. how can any one find them if you (as told) deleted them so others couldn't see your mean side?

Artful Dodger:

> Islam itself claims to be a religion that will spread by the sword.

And Christianity is without flaw, never using violence to spread itself around the world?

I suppose there never were war among Christians, and Christians never used violence to achieve their objectives. The fighting in northern Ireland had nothing to do with Christianity. When Europeans burned alive Aztec and Mayan kings and priests it had nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is all love and purity, incapable of cruelty, greed or destruction.

But then, you still didn't answer my questions. I suppose you have no argument to defend Christianity. Islam is bad, Christianity is good. Historical reality is immaterial.

Artful Dodger:

> Show me where as a global effort, Christians are at war with the world in the way that Islam is.

Just because al Qaeda wants westerners out of the Middle East it does not mean that Islam is at war with the world. I think that you have been repeating right wing propaganda for so long that you have actually have grown to believe it.

But then, we forget that it was Western empires that invaded the Middle East, rahter than the other way around. How many times did Iran deposed an American president and imposed a dictatorship in the USA? Yet Americans did it to Iran. How many times did countires in the Middle East gave money and weapons to dictators in the USA? Yet the USA did it in several countries, not only in the Middle East but around the world. Is it a surprise then that those people see our western way of life as undesirable?

One could very well argue that the USA is at war with the world. After all, your armed forces are present everywhere, invading other countries and threatening to overthrow goverments and bomb those people who disagree with your perceived self-superior way of life. But then, empires always blame those they invade. The Romans invaded the barbarians, even though it was the Romans who invaded those around them.

Irrespective of whether Isalam is at war with the world, you still haven't answered my questions:

How do you account for the wars of Reformation and Christians killing Christians?

How do you accounjt for Christians killing millions of natives in the Americas just to impose their empires and religion on them?

rod03801: Religion is just one of the oldest forms of being able to excuse being a crap human. Modern versions include, race, money, political affiliation, sex, married status, sexuality, class, atheism, physical appearance, etc, etc, etc....

Tuesday: Because YOU say so? Sorry, I don't turn to you to determine my various reasons for my views. Again, move on.

Tuesday: "Silly to use other people's actions as an excuse for not being a part of something. Just be honest for your reasons."

Tuesday: Disagreeing? How is calling me a liar, disagreeing? Disagreeing with MY personal reasons? It's not even close to the same thing as challenging someone about facts. Silly. Try a flame fellowship for that. Thanks. Back on topic, please. Thanks.

Tuesday: I have no clue why you feel the need to go round n round in circles. I stated what I felt, and beyond that, it doesn't (shouldn't?) matter to you. Move on, thank you. YOU are the one who felt the odd craving to call me a liar.

Tuesday: Who are YOU to say what my reasons are? You use your reasons for being part of a cult, I'll use mine for not being part of one. Unlike some, I don't care what anyone thinks of my reasons for being part or not part of something, so I have no reason to lie.

Accept it or not.

Tuesday: Extremely silly comparisons. Not even CLOSE to being the scope of religion. Try again. Or really, don't bother.

I would like to see the historical data on such a claim. I've never heard of such a death rate.

That Christians converted to Islam to avoid paying taxes back then.. that I know. That Christians were treated better than people of non-Abrahamic faiths.. that I know.

That at the time most Kings/Nobles, etc were expanding their land (just as which caused America to be 'found') .. that I know.

But that half of Europe's population was killed (basically what Art is saying)... ... Never taught in all the History classes at school (of which I got very good grades)

So I'll take such as another Islamophobic lie until someone can provide proof. Funny thing is under what Christ said.. such a lie .. God ain't gonna be happy with you.

Artful Dodger:

> Muslims have been killing and warring with others since the inception of their religion. They have NEVER been a peaceful group. Except when they were the weaker, then they wait it out. They have always lived by the sword.

And Christians haven't? You live in denial. Christianity has been at war since it became the state religion of the Roman empire. It is so easy to point the finger at Moslems, but as they say, it takes two to tango.

And what about natives in the Americas? When did they provoke Christianity? Nobody invited Christians to come over and "christianize" the New World.

And the Reformation wars? How do explain those?

So much for Christian values. They are easily swept aside when convenient. Then you come here and claim that Christianity is a victim. Just because Jesus was a peace lover it does not mean that Christians are.

rod03801: wow....somebody speaking sense for a change .....

Übergeek 바둑이: Gosh, I'm no religion expert, but it seems like hypocrisy can be found in every religion. Seems reason enough to me to not be part of any of them!

Artful Dodger:

> You are so wrong. Read up on your history. Muslims have been terrorizing people since they gained power hundreds of years ago.

I think that maybe you are the one who needs to read up on history.

Crusaders left a path of destruction, killing christians, Jews and Moslems along the way to the Holy Land. It was Salahadin the Great who gave people refuge from psychopaths like Richard the Lion Hearted. Jews, Moslems and Christians lived in harmony in the Caliphates of Granada and Sevilla until the Crusaders came in and imposed the Inquisition.

Then Europeans were at each others throats during the Reformation. Even in the recent past we have those conflicts of Protestants and Catholics going on in different parts of the world, most notably Northern Ireland.

In the Americas over 60 million natives were exterminated in order to "civilize" and "christianize" them. So great was the killing that Europeans had to start importing slaves from Africa to compensate for the lack of slaves in their plantations.

Then in developing countries millions of "communists", "socialists" and "left wingers" were killed in order to sustain capitalism and Christianity. You should study nice cases like Franco in Spain or Rios Montt in Guatemala. People who would come out and preach christinaity on TV, then go on and kill thousands of suspected communists.

But then, Christians always say to themselves that all that killing had nothing to do with Christianity but with something else. Christianity has become a religion of hypocrysy.

On 1095-NOV-27, the Pope called on Europeans to go on a crusade to liberate Jerusalem from its Muslim rulers. "The first and second wave of Crusaders murdered, raped and plundered their way up the Rhine and down the Danube as they headed for Jerusalem." 1 The "army" was primarily composed of untrained peasants with their families, with a core of trained soldiers. On the way to the Middle East, they decided that only one of their goals was to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims. A secondary task was to rid the world of as many non-Christians as possible - both Muslims and Jews. The Crusaders gave the Jews two choices in their slogan: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed as the first Crusade passed through. Some Jewish writers refer to these events as the "first holocaust." Once the army reached Jerusalem and broke through the city walls, they slaughtered all the inhabitants that they could find (men, women, children, newborns). After locating about 6,000 Jews holed up in the synagogue, they set the building on fire; the Jews were burned alive. The Crusaders found that about 30,000 Muslims had fled to the al Aqsa Mosque. The Muslim were also slaughtered without mercy.

The Roman Catholic church taught that going to war against the "Infidels" was an act of Christian penance. If a believer was killed during a crusade, he would bypass purgatory, and be taken directly to heaven. By eliminating what might be many millennia of torture in Purgatory, many Christians were strongly motivated to volunteer for the crusades. "After pronouncing a solemn vow, each warrior received a cross from the hands of the pope or his legates, and was thenceforth considered a soldier of the Church." 3

These mass killings were repeated during each of the 8 additional crusades until the final, 9th, crusade in 1272 CE. Both Christians and Muslims believed that they were fighting on God's side against Satan; they believed that if they died on the battlefield they would be given preferential treatment in the Christian Heaven or the Muslim Paradise. Battles were fought with a terrible fierceness and a massive loss of life. Over a 200 year period, perhaps 200,000 people were killed. The Muslim warrior Salah a-Din subsequently recaptured Jerusalem from the Christians.

By the end of the crusades, most European Christians believed the unfounded blood-libel myths -- the rumor that Jews engaged in human sacrifice of Christian children. A long series of Christian persecutions of the Jews continued in Europe and Russia into the 20th century. They laid the foundation for the Nazi Holocaust.

.... Martin Luther. 1543

“What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more…

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home…If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination…

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden – the Jews… Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods… Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune. I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils…next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.”

Blood Brothers and the Global Axis of Evil
by Dr. Robert D. Crane
In case anybody ever wondered whether Imam Khomeini and Syed Qutb shared the same triumphalist philosophy and the same strategy for global conquest, the following grotesquely un-Islamic quote is enlightening: “The revolution of the Iranian people is just the start of a bigger revolution in the Islamic world - establishing an Islamic world government.”

One of Islam’s greatest Islamic scholars, Ibn Taymiya, many centuries ago died in prison for daring to condemn any and all political pretensions of the Caliphate. He spent a great part of his life in prison for declaring that the only function of the Caliphate is not even as a symbol of political unity but represents exclusively a vision of the transcendent moral values and principles of justice shared globally by Islam’s great scholars and men of wisdom.

The proper name for those who follow the worldly pursuit of power is Neo-Conservative, regardless of the religion they pervert. The NeoCons, whether in the halls of Washington or the caves of Afghanistan, are not conservative at all. They are secular liberals in the worst sense, which is the opposite of the traditionalist sense of classical liberal thought which welcomes moral community founded on the ultimate sovereignty of the person subject only to the sovereignty of God. All NeoCons are motivated by existential fear of extinction and obsessed with their own power as the solution to all problems. In America, they are motivated by existential fear of a coming global chaos, not by faith-based hope or by any vision on how to address the causes of chaos. In the Muslim world they are motivated by fear of the American NeoCons’ proud strategy of creative destruction, to which the Muslim NeoCons counter with a similar strategy of their own.

The NeoCons reliance on their own power means that they must pursue power as their ultimate goal, first by gaining control of all levers of power, especially the monopoly of power in government, and then using this power to combat creative destruction. Caught in a common paradigm of power, with no concern for compassionate justice, self-evaluation, and faith-based reconciliation, they pursue ever greater destruction in a never-ending spiral of demented desperation.

Neo-Cons share the paradigm of all violent utopians and therefore are true followers of the French Revolution, Communism, Nazism, and apocalyptic Zionism. The Great American Experiment was founded to avoid the trends toward such secular extremism that were already surfacing two centuries ago and that threatened to become more dangerous even than the religious extremism that had wracked Europe for so many centuries. Today, the two most violent forms of extremism, secular NeoConism and religious Binladenism, are mirror images of each other. They are trying to destroy each other on the global stage like two scorpions in a bottle.

The greatest danger in the pursuit of compassionate justice is the temptation to become utopian and turn the paradigm of justice into a new secular religion, which ultimately in its frustration at failure may result in resort to the creative destruction that lies at the base of both capitalism and socialism. Some true revolutionaries propose a just third way to reverse the wealth gap under the slogan “Own or Be Owned,” by expanding capital ownership through reform of the systems of money and credit. They insist that the human right individually to own the means of production is universal and is recognized by all the world religions. But, they must beware of the temptation in all revolutionary movements to adopt the mindset of the NeoCons, whereby the end justifies the means.

Even those who legitimately pursue justice must guard against the temptations to create a sectarian religion by transforming the means of justice into ultimate ends. By pursuing justice as a tactical means in the pursuit of power, their totalitarian mentality would pervert the pursuit of justice into a totalitarian evil. The NeoCons pose the ultimate terrorist threat to humankind because they worship themselves in a vicious circle of ontological solipsism and therefore deny the authority of a transcendent natural law.

By creating their own positivist international law, which Kissinger on August 12, 2002, declared was the real purpose for invading Iraq, the NeoCons in every culture deny the sources of transcendent law. They deny, first, the guidance of divine revelation, known in Islamic law as haqq al yaqin, second, the guidance evident in the diversity and coherent unity of the universe, known as ‘ain al yaqin, and, finally, the guidance of human reason or ijtihad, known as ‘ilm al yaqin, to process the first two. They deny the “great jihad” or jihad al kabir, which is the intellectual jihad that builds on the primary or greatest jihad, the jihad al akbar, which is self-purification, and the lesser jihad, known as the jihad al saghrir, which is the duty of self-defense through the use of force when all the requirements of the Islamic just war doctrine have been met.

The false conservatives, whether they are known as Neo or Salafi or Fascist, form the real axis of evil in the world. They come from the same source and cooperate unwillingly as blood brothers in producing the same result, which is their mutual self-destruction as Beasts of the Anti-Christ.

Artful Dodger:

> The mighty mujahideen are being killed by American women

The mighty mujahideen got their start when the CIA gave them money and weapons in the 80s. Thank you Ronald Regan!

Artful Dodger: I'm sorry, but such a statement makes me think you have no idea of what you are talking about. Islamic followers are Muslim, as followers of Jesus are called Christians. It's to do with that Islam has depth that is lost in just one word, just as Christ has much depth in what it means... "the anointed one".. Greek, Messiah .. Hebrew, Logos.. Greek.

"And they are simply following the words of the Koran exactly."

Says who? Interpretation of Holy books is such a finicky thing. One person says A, another about the same passage can say AB.. that's why we have so many different Christian faiths. I remember you some time back condemning all other Christian views bar your own view as supporters of the Anti-Christ.. yet, you appear to have changed, as represented by your recent comments on LDS... At one time you considered all Mormons being in league with sAtAn.

"So-called moderates are either lying to the West or they aren't following the teachings of Mohammed."

If you don't know that followers of the Islamic faith are all Muslims.. ...

Try a library maybe.

Artful Dodger:

> An obscene overgeneralization. geeze

Isn't that what you do when you condemn Islam with a blanket statement, or when you condemn the left with a blanket statement? The point I am trying to make is that you can't judge EVERYONE based on the actions of a few.