.... Martin Luther. 1543

“What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of God and of Christianity in order that God may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before God with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more…

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home…If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of God you want to share all their abomination…

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden – the Jews… Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear Lord Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before God that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods… Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune. I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils…next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.”

Artful Dodger:

> You are so wrong. Read up on your history. Muslims have been terrorizing people since they gained power hundreds of years ago.

I think that maybe you are the one who needs to read up on history.

Crusaders left a path of destruction, killing christians, Jews and Moslems along the way to the Holy Land. It was Salahadin the Great who gave people refuge from psychopaths like Richard the Lion Hearted. Jews, Moslems and Christians lived in harmony in the Caliphates of Granada and Sevilla until the Crusaders came in and imposed the Inquisition.

Then Europeans were at each others throats during the Reformation. Even in the recent past we have those conflicts of Protestants and Catholics going on in different parts of the world, most notably Northern Ireland.

In the Americas over 60 million natives were exterminated in order to "civilize" and "christianize" them. So great was the killing that Europeans had to start importing slaves from Africa to compensate for the lack of slaves in their plantations.

Then in developing countries millions of "communists", "socialists" and "left wingers" were killed in order to sustain capitalism and Christianity. You should study nice cases like Franco in Spain or Rios Montt in Guatemala. People who would come out and preach christinaity on TV, then go on and kill thousands of suspected communists.

But then, Christians always say to themselves that all that killing had nothing to do with Christianity but with something else. Christianity has become a religion of hypocrysy.

Übergeek 바둑이: Gosh, I'm no religion expert, but it seems like hypocrisy can be found in every religion. Seems reason enough to me to not be part of any of them!

rod03801: wow....somebody speaking sense for a change .....

Tuesday: Extremely silly comparisons. Not even CLOSE to being the scope of religion. Try again. Or really, don't bother.

Tuesday: Who are YOU to say what my reasons are? You use your reasons for being part of a cult, I'll use mine for not being part of one. Unlike some, I don't care what anyone thinks of my reasons for being part or not part of something, so I have no reason to lie.

Accept it or not.

Tuesday: I have no clue why you feel the need to go round n round in circles. I stated what I felt, and beyond that, it doesn't (shouldn't?) matter to you. Move on, thank you. YOU are the one who felt the odd craving to call me a liar.

Tuesday: Disagreeing? How is calling me a liar, disagreeing? Disagreeing with MY personal reasons? It's not even close to the same thing as challenging someone about facts. Silly. Try a flame fellowship for that. Thanks. Back on topic, please. Thanks.

Tuesday: "Silly to use other people's actions as an excuse for not being a part of something. Just be honest for your reasons."

Tuesday: Because YOU say so? Sorry, I don't turn to you to determine my various reasons for my views. Again, move on.

rod03801: Religion is just one of the oldest forms of being able to excuse being a crap human. Modern versions include, race, money, political affiliation, sex, married status, sexuality, class, atheism, physical appearance, etc, etc, etc....

Artful Dodger:

> Muslims have been killing and warring with others since the inception of their religion. They have NEVER been a peaceful group. Except when they were the weaker, then they wait it out. They have always lived by the sword.

And Christians haven't? You live in denial. Christianity has been at war since it became the state religion of the Roman empire. It is so easy to point the finger at Moslems, but as they say, it takes two to tango.

And what about natives in the Americas? When did they provoke Christianity? Nobody invited Christians to come over and "christianize" the New World.

And the Reformation wars? How do explain those?

So much for Christian values. They are easily swept aside when convenient. Then you come here and claim that Christianity is a victim. Just because Jesus was a peace lover it does not mean that Christians are.

Artful Dodger:

> Show me where as a global effort, Christians are at war with the world in the way that Islam is.

Just because al Qaeda wants westerners out of the Middle East it does not mean that Islam is at war with the world. I think that you have been repeating right wing propaganda for so long that you have actually have grown to believe it.

But then, we forget that it was Western empires that invaded the Middle East, rahter than the other way around. How many times did Iran deposed an American president and imposed a dictatorship in the USA? Yet Americans did it to Iran. How many times did countires in the Middle East gave money and weapons to dictators in the USA? Yet the USA did it in several countries, not only in the Middle East but around the world. Is it a surprise then that those people see our western way of life as undesirable?

One could very well argue that the USA is at war with the world. After all, your armed forces are present everywhere, invading other countries and threatening to overthrow goverments and bomb those people who disagree with your perceived self-superior way of life. But then, empires always blame those they invade. The Romans invaded the barbarians, even though it was the Romans who invaded those around them.

Irrespective of whether Isalam is at war with the world, you still haven't answered my questions:

How do you account for the wars of Reformation and Christians killing Christians?

How do you accounjt for Christians killing millions of natives in the Americas just to impose their empires and religion on them?

Artful Dodger:

> Islam itself claims to be a religion that will spread by the sword.

And Christianity is without flaw, never using violence to spread itself around the world?

I suppose there never were war among Christians, and Christians never used violence to achieve their objectives. The fighting in northern Ireland had nothing to do with Christianity. When Europeans burned alive Aztec and Mayan kings and priests it had nothing to do with Christianity. Christianity is all love and purity, incapable of cruelty, greed or destruction.

But then, you still didn't answer my questions. I suppose you have no argument to defend Christianity. Islam is bad, Christianity is good. Historical reality is immaterial.

Übergeek 바둑이: Just take it as he has no argument.

As obviously he doesn't and cannot if he was playing on a level field. At the moment all he's doing is twisting and changing the conditions of proof to avoid answering.

Artful Dodger: Are you talking about all those posts you deleted? If so.. how can any one find them if you (as told) deleted them so others couldn't see your mean side?

Artful Dodger: So.. that means your previous excuses that torture is justified has now been blown away by your own words.

How do you think Jesus would react to Christians saying torture is ok?

Artful Dodger: Surely we can find a way to wipe off the earth about a billion people or so....Thats what The Lord would want

Artful Dodger:

> Jesus:
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself."
(Matthew 5:14)

Fine, but then, was that why it was OK for Christians to burn at the stake Aztec and Mayan priests?

Or more recently, is that why it was OK for American Christians to support and condone the wars that the US is involved in?

Is that why many christiansbelieve it is OK to use nuclear weapons as a deterrent?

Is that why Sarah Palin (self-described good Christian) believes in it is OK to be in the NRA and it is ok for people to own guns?

Is that why as a good Christian you were defending the psychological torture known as waterboarding?

Tuesday:

The point I am trying to make is that some Christians (not all) want to portray Islam as evil. Art keeps on going about how bad Islam is, how violent it is, etc. However, he is incapable of admitting that Christianity has been just as rotten through its history. Before pointing the finger at Islam, Art should take a hard look at Christianity and all the "compromises" and "excuses". He defends waterboarding, gun posession, war for building empires and extracting commodities, etc. He can't explain to us how all those right wing beliefs of his reconcile with Christ's true teachings. It is easier to hide behind "democracy, "constitution", or "Islam is bad", than to admit that much of what he believes is as unChristian as beliefs come.

Artful Dodger: The west taught them to be murders. They are our own demons come back to haunt us. We gave them the training, the arms necessary to murder Russians. We created a loose canon.

From the Washington post.

Plus torture is unreliable.
Army Col. Stuart Herrington, a military intelligence specialist who conducted interrogations in Vietnam, Panama and Iraq during Desert Storm

"In his experience, nine out of 10 people can be persuaded to talk with no "stress methods" at all, let alone cruel and unusual ones. Asked whether that would be true of religiously motivated fanatics, he says that the "batting average" might be lower: "perhaps six out of ten." And if you beat up the remaining four? "They'll just tell you anything to get you to stop.""

The article then goes to say....

Worse, you'll have the other side effects of torture. It "endangers our soldiers on the battlefield by encouraging reciprocity." It does "damage to our country's image" and undermines our credibility in Iraq. That, in the long run, outweighs any theoretical benefit. Herrington's confidential Pentagon report, which he won't discuss but which was leaked to The Post a month ago, goes farther. In that document, he warned that members of an elite military and CIA task force were abusing detainees in Iraq, that their activities could be "making gratuitous enemies" and that prisoner abuse "is counterproductive to the Coalition's efforts to win the cooperation of the Iraqi citizenry." Far from rescuing Americans, in other words, the use of "special methods" might help explain why the war is going so badly.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2302-2005Jan11.html

Artful Dodger:

> You say its torture, I say it's not. I want my government to have in its toolbox the right, under presidential order, to use waterboarding.

If somebody waterboarded your children, would it be torture or a mere firendly questioning? I will belive that waterboarding is not torture on the day that Dick Cheney allows himself to be waterboarded publicly on national TV.

You threaten somebody with death, you do it over and over until they confess. You could do it pointing a gun to their head, or holding a knife to their throat, or pretending to drown them. It is PSYCHOLOGICAL TORTURE.

But then, a good Christian like you defends it.

All you say to me is:

"The STATE has the right and the responsibility to protect its citizens. The Bible says that the State doens't yield the sword for nothing. Meaning that it has the power and responsibility for social order etc."

Can you show me where it says that? Or is it (like much of what passes as the Bible) a misinterpretation of a passage out of context?

You are a Christian. Are nuclear weapons right or wrong? If you say they are an acceptable deterrent, can you explain to me HOW that conforms with your Christian ethic. You say Chirst is all about loving one's neighbor. Well, are 100 megatons more love than 20 megatons?

As for guns, you say it is a constitutional right and many good Christians own guns. Following the example of Jesus, those people own lethal weapons and use them "responsibly". I wonder if Jesus carried a sword and used it "responsibly".

you said that Islam is a religion of violence and that it has perpetrated violence throught its history. If that is the case, and considering your poor excuses for the rotten things Christians have done, Christianity reduces itself to a religion that preaches love, but in reality exercises hypocrisy.

Artful Dodger:

> You have to twist history for that (and you do and have).

How have I twisted history? Christians fought wars for wealth and empire. They came to the Americas and exterminated entire cultures to convert the native inhabitants into Christians. Christians fought wars during the Reformation and even in our present era conflicts between Protestants and Catholics remain. Christians burned people at the stake, they tortured people, forced people to convert to their religion against their will. Christians prosecuted Jews, Moslems, Gypsies, and other religious minorities.

These are not twisted historical facts. These are well-known historical facts.

> I don't defend war for the purpose of building empires or extracting commodities.

What was your stance on the war in Iraq? Did you see it as right or wrong? I hope that you did not celebrate its arrival like many Americans did. The Bush administration lied to the American people and carried on a war of empire building and oil supply control. Let's say for a moment that I am wrong. War of any kind should be abhorrent to any Christian. Violence of any kind should be abhorrent to any Christian. That is the core of the Sermon on the Mount. So can any war be justified on political or ideological grounds?

> By being against that, you would be in favor of seeing innocent people die rather than some low-life terrorist experience a few moments of fearful discomfort.

Now I will use fear to compromise my faith. I am afraid of terrorists, so I will justify an act of violence. I know that in the real world there are cruel people, but does that justify being violent? I see these politicians saying that they are Christians, then they turn around and justify violence out of political motives and fear. I suppose God makes exceptions when higher ideals are used to justify violence, physical or psychological.

> Gun ownership is legal.

I am not talking about the law or the constitution. I am talking about true Christian values. Is it a Christian value to say that it is OK for a person to buy and learn to use a lethal weapon? I will hide behind the constitution and say that something that is unChristian is acceptable because it is legal. Pornography is legal. It is legal to buy it, own it, see it, etc. Does that make pornography acceptable to a Christian?

I bring these things up not to put you on the spot, or to make Christianity look bad. I bring them up because I think a lot of people make compromises with their beliefs. There are many things that deep inside we know how wrong they are. Yet we justify them in the name of higher ideals. We hide behind those higher principles to do wrong.

That is precisely what terrorists do. These people know that killing is wrong. They know it is unacceptable to their version of God and their religion. But they do it in the name of some ideology.

Cristians might tell themselves that they are better, but are they really? How can a Christian make that claim when that person has compromised the core principles of Christianity in the name of politics, ideology or abstract ideals?

Artful Dodger: Are you falsely claiming that others (including me are) not honest.

We are more honest then you are.

"And it's only been used twice and only in extreme circumstances."

I hear on three people so far (requires more investigation to reasonably confirm numbers), and the number of times on two people was 266 times. It can kill or even cause damage to the lungs and brain.

The technique of waterboarding or any kind of torture is against what Christ taught, by nature of what it says in the Bible. Even when arrested Christ healed the ear of one of the arresting party that one of his buddies had cut off.

If you cannot accept Christ's words then go back to being a non Christian please, as you are giving Christians a bad name.