(V):  We are talking the science of life.  period.  What we KNOW.  Not various interpretations of ancient texts. 

Yours is a subjective view and mine is objective.  Yours based on suppositions and theory and mine on solid and  provable facts.  

Artful Dodger: So God is now not part of life, we have no spirit or soul??

There goes Christianity... best all those making a living out of it hang up their coats!!

(V):  Oh well 

(V): That is the point when suffering can occur.


Thats hog wash.... its like saying that if I kill you in your sleep, therefore no suffering, then it is okay???

Czuch: Czuch ... do you know waterboarding means??

I suggest you take a look at some demonstration videos on youtube. Where people agree to see what it feels like.

And using water torture (as I quoted) was considered a crime by the USA. What's changed??

(V):  You'd use it if it was the only way to protect your family.  We all would.  We're not dealing with nuns here.   Terrorists.  they play hardball. 

Artful Dodger: No. I wouldn't need to. Other ways to get info without the need for torture. A certain police force use it quite often

(V):  And those other ways are?

Artful Dodger: Say Pretty Please

SL-Mark:  pretty please 

Artful Dodger: That would in part require me to betray a trust.

Such I would consider as equal to breaking the OSA!

(V):  Or a convenient way to avoid the question.  BTW, I figured you'd fail this little test.  The correct answer to my question would have pointed out that water boarding is a last course of interrogation and used only when other methods (such as your "secret" method) have failed.  That said, your answer to my question has to assume that those "secret" methods of yours would failed.  Because Jules, in point of fact, if those secret methods did actually work, then there would be no need to water board anyone.  It's only when other measures fail that water boarding is used. 

Now to the crux of the matter:  If all else fails you, and your family, friends, comrades' lives are at stake, and IF you have nothing left but to try the drastic step of water boarding, do you put other lives at risk for some nonsense such as higher ground or do you do the right thing and water board?

Me?  I'm a Jack Bower fan.  Some dude knows some intel that could bring harm to my family etc, I'm going right to well placed electrodes and gonna turn up the juice. 

Artful Dodger: *sigh* Not everyone uses the same methods Art. Not everyone is trusted.. as in this case due to lack of trust in intelligence!!

(V):  You're avoiding the question.   If other methods failed to yield any information, and you had very strong reason to believe that your family/friends/fellow soldiers very lives were at stake and that the terrorist had information that could save lives, would you let other die, or water board?

You have two choices and only two. 

A-Water board to get the intel

B-No waterboarding under any circumstances even if it means loved ones may die.

A or B?

Please answer.   What are you going to do?

Artful Dodger: Nope, I answered. And if you had read up on why waterboarding was used (as I said .. due to a lack of trust in intelligence) you'd have my reply easily from my answers.

And Art.. There are times in your life when you cannot break trust. The Official Secrets Act (OSA) is one of them.. being a lawyer is another case, etc. I made a sincere promise and I intend to keep it!!!

But in respect, that is beside the point.

You want more clue's (I'm gonna make you stretch your grey stuff) ... Pan roams and that's all you get.


And Übergeek 바둑이 got the main point and the point you all seem to miss. It's a slippery slope when you've broken the moral ground you base your activities on.

(V): It's a slippery slope when you've broken the moral ground you base your activities on.




here you go again.... trickle down is no good except when it works for you, and slippery slopes are a good argument, but only when it is to defend your own beliefs

Czuch: No.. not trickle down... you put a price on the cost of one humans head, it then becomes a standard excuse.

... Now, read your history about tyrants and what they thought... a slippery slope that opens the path to the abyss.

.. And it's this kind of attitude that opens up the problem of moral high ground.

... you ain't got any.

(V): I dont need or want any moral high ground... you would be the one watching your family get slaughtered while chanting to yourself, "I am better than them" "I am better then them" "I am better than them"....

Czuch: Well if your self justified, justify yourself. Others have been capable and have one won the fight without breaking the principles that they are fighting for.

So.. tell me. Why can't America?

You've signed all the conventions, taking part and pursued war criminals and tried them without all this 'torture' business, and then much bigger criminals then you have now for much of the same things that you now justify..

... So when did someone decide the American spirit has become so weak that it needs to behave as it once said was so wrong??

(V): So when did someone decide the American spirit has become so weak that it needs to behave as it once said was so wrong??




911

Czuch: So Czuch... you've just blown the reasons you say America started the Iraq war on. Moral high ground.

So we can now say that you finally admit it was an illegal war.

ok????

(V): So Czuch... you've just blown the reasons you say America started the Iraq war on. Moral high ground.


Wrong again... we started the war in iraq because we were sick and tired of wasting our time and resources monitoring Saddam and paying to feed his people.....

(V): Now you have me confused again, with your contradictions..... models dont work except God created a model at creation that bound?????


You have ignored this one.... You say that models dont work, yet you seem to promote the model that God set into place????

Czuch: Yes I do, and such a model includes quantum physics. And if you knew about quantum physics then you'd know nothing is certain at that level.

I also include, 6 dimensional space and 'brains and multi verses... big 'brains!!

(V): And if you knew about quantum physics then you'd know nothing is certain at that level.


i NEVER SAID THAT ANY MODEL WOULD CREATE CERTAINTY.... YOU SAID THAT MODELS DONT WORK, PERIOD! tHEN YOU PROMOTED gODS MODEL....

So, again, which is it for you? If models dont work Chuck, then Gods model must be faulty as well?

Czuch: Yes.. and in saying so I included quantum math. It is part of the model you know And yes.. you said you presume your models work until they don't...

.. So.. we are in agreement that the model is that there is no model. No way to predict accurately events. Builders know this. Even if they have a plan, they always have to include an uncertainty principle for things that they cannot control.

And it would be helpful if you remember what you said, that democracy was the main reason that we went to war in Iraq... or was it WMD's??

But then saying you have no higher moral ground would negate such reasons. And then the question is.... why were you tired of Saddam?

(V): And it would be helpful if you remember what you said, that democracy was the main reason that we went to war in Iraq... or was it WMD's??





Not true.....we went in because it was in our best interest to do so. By that I mean, that a stable middle east, starting with a free iraq, was good for the US, and the world, in many ways.

(V): why were you tired of Saddam?




We were tired of him, again, because we were spending too much time, resources and money on the monitoring and feeding etc...

Czuch: So the war was good for America in what way? A stable middle east, yet by all rights wouldn't you say that the USA had done little or blocked peace attempts in the past? One minute Saddam is a good guy, been given WMD material,. next he's bad.

And if the USA was tired of monitoring him... why create him in the first place!! You knew he was no good yet the USA gave him WMD material!!

why?

(V): One minute Saddam is a good guy, been given WMD material,. next he's bad.


Problem with this analysis is that it was NOT one minute to the next, the time frame was many years, and under different administrations.


You dont seem to mind the US becoming more socialist, even though it has only been a few months since we were not headed in that direction.... see, things change, but you dont seem to mind sometimes, and sometimes you do


Your politics are full of contradictions, really, depending on what suits you for any specific argument... typical of one with a liberal mindset (US liberal that is)

Czuch: I'm not contradicting anything.. just trying to understand the reasoning.. and yes the time phrase was years... but you do understand the phrase don't you in the context I meant it??

Please explain who missed that Saddam was nasty and how.. this point I find interesting!!

(V): Have you ever heard.... an enemy of your enemy is your friend?

Czuch: Is he.. in what way?? That he kills people for you and your hands are not stained in blood? I thought accomplices were still guilty.

(V): And if the USA was tired of monitoring him... why create him in the first place!!



you got it backwards...

Czuch: Who supplied the WMD's that made him a threat?? The USA.. so if the USA had not given him the material .. which he used against the Iranians, yet that was ok.. he wouldn't have needed monitoring.

Isn't that clear????

(V): The US gave Saddam wmds?

Czuch: The ability to create them. From dear Ronald Raygun. It's in your government records.

(V): The ability to create them. From dear Ronald Raygun. It's in your government records.



The ability to create them... whoopty doo..... lots of people have the ability to create them, doesnt mean they use them against their own people, or purposely target innocent people with them


Doesnt mean you have to neglect your own people to the point where I have to feed them for you either

Czuch: So.... are you saying it's ok for the USA to supply people it knows that are 'bad' with the ability to kill their own people and others more efficiently, and knowing before hand that it does kill it's own people and others and will use WMD material that is supplied to them to that extent... it's ok??

And then change it's mind (probably due to embarrassment) then to moan about feeding them, which is a direct result of previous supplying of WMD materials which leads to the necessity of sanctions.

Are you saying that in all cases of the USA (or any other western country) supporting murders and the ilk, it's ok?

If so.. then you'd have to understand why some nations are angry at the USA (and other western nations) for such actions.. wouldn't you.

(V): I cant answer any of that, since I dont buy into your presumptions and premise

Czuch: You can't answer!!! And I'm not presuming.. I'm going by history.

And how do you stand by the USA helping Iraq, a known unstable state.. giving them Nuclear tech??

Or are you going to take the government line and deny everything.

(V): yes, it is okay

(V): no, you didn't answer the question posed. You ducked again. I already know the answer anyway. So it doesn't matter.

Artful Dodger: Nope.. I answered. And so did Czuch.. and if you agree with Czuch that you needed no moral ground to start using waterboarding, etc then you've dumped your morality full stop.

You cannot have it both ways... only tyrants try that and they fail..

(V):  nope and nope and nope.   And I won't waste any more time with you on it. 

Artful Dodger: Good. Then you'd recognise that your whole argument is based on sand?

(V): Other ways to get info without the need for torture. A certain police force use it quite often


Really? What are they then?

Because it seems like to me that you are accusing us of torturing people just for the fun of it????


I do remember when we had some MPs taking naked pictures with dogs etc... but I dont consider this torture, I can guarantee you that our CIA has way better things to do with their time than to torture people just for the fun of it

(V): What are you asking me this for anyway??? Please give me some reference for me to get perspective?

Czuch: Pardon?? It was a simple question...

Look and see.