Tuesday: you accepting verse 16 and discounting verses 17 and 18
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Tuesday: But it's called the "word of God" by those who believe in it. I don't buy it for a minute.

That's just ME of course, and I certainly can't claim to be right! But those who believe it claim to be right about something they couldn't possibly know!

I'm NOT atheist. I believe STRONGLY in "GOD". The "GOD" I believe in though is nothing like what I have read in any religion. It seems TO ME like all the major religions see "GOD" as human like.

Granted, I have NEVER studied any of this deeply. Probably more than the "average joe", but not as much as some of you.

I don't understand why it can't be a purely personal thing. Why does it have to be a team sport? Where the World Series is going to come and we will find out who the winner is. ??? I don't get that. I will NEVER accept that any of us human beings TRULY know what the real answer is.

rod03801: thats why it's called "faith"

rod03801: There are things we can know with certainty, other things on which we may disagree, and still other things which we cannot know. It's not unusual for organized or unorganized religion to differ on points. But where in the world is this not true of everything? Business, politics, education, you name it.

Artful Dodger: But y'all (and I DO mean "all") act like you know the definites.

rod03801: I know what I think I understand to be true. And I know what is orthodox and what is not.

Artful Dodger: Why the heck should "orthodox" matter? That's the route of everything to me. I DON'T get why ANYone, (Jewish, Muslim, Christian, etc.) thinks THEY have the monopoly on what is correct.

rod03801: I'm talking about the orthodox Christian views. And those do matter. There are certain things the church has agreed upon that have stood the test of time. And they are supported by the Bible. So yeah, that matters. And what the alternative? Everyone walks around with the attitude that, "I don't know." That's a silly alternative. Some people hold views that they are comfortable with but they are based on personal preferences. To me that seems even more crazy.

Artful Dodger: a book written by humans? that's silly to be reluctant to believe THATS the word of GOD?

Very illogical

rod03801: Why is it illogical? You think God isn't capable of inspiring men to write a book?

Artful Dodger: "Inspired"??? Please.

Not one that should make everyone go to war against each other. And hate each other, because of stuff that CANT be proven.

When the human like GOD comes and stands here and says what the truth is, I will believe in the human like GOD.

Until then, I will continue to believe the more logical idea that God is everything around us, air, life in general, not a person like IDOL at all.

rod03801: yep.....me also :)

rod03801: Human like God? Christianity doesn't teach that. And there are plenty of people, atheists, intellectuals, regular joes, who became Christians after examining the claims of Christ. It sounds to me like you're just rejecting it out of hand. Hostile even. But that's ok. Some believe and some don't. You can't come to faith on your own anyway.

Artful Dodger: Well Im afraid Im not hostile but I just don't believe....give me proof and I would apologise unequivocably(sp)

Artful Dodger: Hostile? LOL.. NO, if anything just the opposite. I'm happy that people have some sort of faith. It's a silly argument though to call disagreement "hostility" though. Sounds like many of the arguments that you fight so fervently against.

rod03801: I wasn't saying your method of disagreeing was hostile but that your attitude toward religion and in particular Christian claims seemed hostile. ;)

Artful Dodger: I know that this is addressed to ROd but that would fit me....the reason...I was forced into becoming a catholic so that I could get married when I was carrying a catholic mans child LOL...he had a Sister a Nun and a Brother a Priest, so of course the family lived and breathed religion....it was force fed down my throat...I even had to sign a document that I would school my children in a catholic school. I didnt send my 2 to a RC school and they both did real well, thank you very much.....so you MAY understand why I am hostile.

Also I was made go to church every Sunday come rain, Hail or shine...not pleasant when up until then my religious experiences were voluntary.

Bernice: I do understand. I've heard similar stories before and it's sad really. People meant well I suppose.

Frankly, I find the Bible quite convincing. I think God has adequately revealed himself in his Word, and through His Son. I think that God reveals himself through the world (but not as Rod sees it but as a demonstration of his creative power). There are many things I've investigated through the years that demonstrate intellectually that Christianity is true. That appeals to me because when I was young I was told to 'just believe." Well, the skeptics in the world challenged me and I had no answers to their questions. "Just believe" was no longer good enough. So I began asking lots of questions. And honestly I haven't stopped asking. I know what I believe to be ultimate true and I know what I am totally clueless on. God for example, is incomprehensible. Anyone who fully understands God is either a liar, a deceiver, or a complete fool. No one can fully know God as he really is.

We can't begin to fully understand the ways of God. We know some things, but not all. So the things I say I believer to be true are really only those things that are revealed. Each one I could make a rational argument for (such as baptism and it's place in the church). Ask me about hell and I'll tell you honestly that neither do I know and neither does anyone really know about the nature of hell. There are four views of hell and they are all well supported by rational argument and based on the Bible. Why is there no agreement? Well the Bible isn't exactly crystal clear on this. There are some things we know, some things we absolutely don't know, and other things of which we have only a glimpse. ;)

Artful Dodger: "Frankly, I find the Bible quite convincing. I think God has adequately revealed himself in his Word, and through His Son. "
there you have it...its YOUR prerogative to believe. not KNOW.

Artful Dodger: It's "hostile" to prefer more "proof" than a book written by humans? The God I believe in, reveals itself every day. That's all I'm saying. The God I see many others talking about? I've NEVER seen anything that makes it seem true. The God I see most talking about, seems to be just a way to make others "obey" what their common belief is.

rod03801: The god you believe in is a god made in your own image unless what you believe happens to be true. Just saying (this is true for everyone I suppose). If 100 people have 100 different views of God, either all are wrong or just ONE is right and the others wrong. You can't have 100 people with differing views on something all being correct. That is illogical. So it seems to me that if you're going to bother believing in something, one should give a reasoned effort to see out what's true etc ;)

Artful Dodger: and a BOOK, written by HUMANS, of any religion, doesn't do it. Nothing you can quote from any of those books is EVER going to be proof of anything significant. The proof I see daily is all the proof I need. THank you.

rod03801: down boy! I get it ;)

rod03801: but yer still wrong

Artful Dodger: because a silly book says so? Or WHY? HMM?

rod03801: Because I said so.

I forgot to mention - God runs everything by me first. ;)

Artful Dodger: Until he runs it by ME, I'll continue to scoff at all the books that claim to be written by God.

rod03801: I'll bet you scoff in a hostile way

Artful Dodger: And if all are not "illuminated" then it's perfectly logical.

a leap of faith requires no reason.. it just is.

Artful Dodger: When You, or any other "orthodox" of any religion can PROVE it, I will happily fall in step.

Artful Dodger: I think the scripture on the seed and the sower says nay to that. God may give the option, but as to whether you take up on that has to be a matter of free will. Any lack of free will and we are not Children.. just robots.