Czuch:just wondering if you think that bush did a good job, and if he could have run for a 3rd. term, would you have voted for him again?

ellieoop: just wondering if you think that bush did a good job, and if he could have run for a 3rd. term, would you have voted for him again?

Hi Ellie, I would vote for you any day!


I think Bush could have done many things better. I still support him taking it to Saddam and liberating those people, I do wish he handled the post war stuff better, although I dont think all of the anti war dissent from his own country helped much either.

I might have preferred a different person instead of bush for a third term, I actually think he became too much of a liberal for my liking, and part of the reason for his low approval rating was not just the liberals who hated him, but there were a lot of conservatives who thought he leaned to much the other way on some issues.

Having said that, I think that every person who is smart enough to get his parties nomination for president has got to be pretty darn accomplished, so i dont worry too much about the specific person as I do their ideology. If Obama were a conservative, I would have no problem voting for him, and given that Obama is as far from a conservative as you could practically get, i would have voted for Bush over him in a heart beat!


Is that what you wanted to know?

Czuch: yes and thanks for answering.
i agree that he started out ok, and then it went downhill pretty fast.
i hope obama can steer us in a new and better direction, but we have to wait and see, and i did vote for him. i felt that mccain was another 8 years of the same.

ellieoop: i felt that mccain was another 8 years of the same.

You are not the only one that felt that way... its the main reason Obama won, in my opinion.

My beef is, and only time will tell, that people wanted change, but in that change will come consequences that people were not aware of, if you followed any of my rants on the gen chat you know what those problems are, in my opinion, but I think the ultimate outcome is that America will become like many other countries which I find to be mediocre countries, America will become another blah blah blah on the map, and the thing I love about America right now is that we are a bold country not afraid of the risk reward game willing to go out on a limb and fight for what we believe in and leading the way for the rest of the world.... we have come this far not by imitating other countries but by innovation and leadership, and I just feel like now we are going to head into a follower, a country just like every other country and we will lose our sharp edge, the edge that has made edge in the past.....


only time will tell, I hope the change you wanted is the change you get and is really change we all can believe in!

Czuch: if I see the word liberal from you again,I think I will reach the the screen and beat you in the head with it,lol....but sheeple made me gigle..
anywho...I think it was you that posted on GD about how Obama isn't going to do half of the things he promissed...tell me ONE politician that has done everything that he or she has promised to do...show me ONE and I won't beat you in the head with your word
You know I tease about beating you,at least in the head,I don't believe in hitting in the head ;)
My things is...your a good debater..I LOVE to debate,what irks me about you sooo bad is that you always seem to try to make things personal.....that bothers me about you...I have actually come to your defense on things and yet you seem to want to try to attack people,why is that??
Besides the war you think was a good move, what oh so wonderful things has Bush done for the country? Are you really...honestly,REALLY proud of the state that our country is in right now??? I think even IF McCain had gotten in,he couldn't fix everything Bush left (leaves) behind...it will take YEAR and YEARS for that to happen....not everyone will agaree 100% of the time,thats life....I stood behind Bush,in the begining because,even thought I did not vote for him,he was our president and if we,as a nation did not support him how does that make the US look to the rest of the world? I supported him untill I just could not stand to hear his name anymore...actaully,you want to know what the turning point was with him for me....The day he was giving a speech,we were already at was and he was joking...JOKING about the WOMD...are they under the table...nope,not there,giggle,giggle....are you KIDDING ME! We have people over there DYING and he is making a flipping JOKE about it!!?? that is NOT a leader that I could support in any way shape or form...that was just sick!
So tell me WHAT made Bush a great president...what will HE be remembered for in our history books??

Czuch: head in sand? I didn't think the digital age allowed that much to happen in openly democratic country's... The freedom of information act is one example of such democracy where groups and individuals can obtain info from our Gov that is not considered 'secret' and going to put us at risk.

If people are putting their heads in the sand then it's only because they have been programmed not to think by certain bodies in high office. I watched one episode of the show "Boston Legal" that implied that your education has become lacking compared to certain other countries.. such as ours.

Is that true?

(V): implied that your education has become lacking compared to certain other countries.. such as ours.

I have always believed that to be true... since our schools are run by the government, who is pretty bad at running anything.... thats the same reason i do not want the government running our health care or much of anything for that matter except the military.

Add to the fact that liberals are dumbing down our schools with such great ideas as pass fail only grades, and not using red markers to grade exams, as examples, there are many others as well, its a head scratcher why anyone would advocate for our government to run more thin gs instead of fewer!

Czuch: Sorry Czuch, but for the last 8 years+ education has been under conservative control.

And as for your healthcare... I'm sorry, but the stories I hear of Healthcare companies taking the mickey not only in increased charges, but also in that the claim guys are encouraged to try and turn down applications and get awarded for doing so is rather naughty.

(V): The NEA has been running the schools and is hardly conservative, there first agenda is money and power

(V): You really dont understand do you? Its not like one year the schools are run by conservatives and then by liberals or whatever, the schools are run by the government.

If the governemnt is doing a bad job with schools, then what makes you think they will run anything right?

Czuch: So you can't really blame the liberals then can you, as it is an all party fault.

Parties came make policy on how education develops and is implemented, just like when they banned state religion as such from the schools... or so I gather.

.. You can't possibly be saying that it does not matter who's the Pres or has the majority in congress, etc when it comes to decisions about the future of such things as education, etc?

(V): You can blame the liberals in that they block any attempt for competition, in the form of vouchers and accountability in the form of actual learning and how money is spent

Vikings: Isn't that then seeing as the people are elected a representation of the will of the people?

(V): No as the NEA is an union entrenched entity

(V): Its the whole liberal notion that we all have to somehow be equal and we are hurting someone if they are made to feel inferior to anyone else in any way shape or form, and we must do what we can to not have anyone do better than anyone else kind of attitude. Pass or fail grades, no keeping score in youth baseball, so nobody knows who won or lost or that anyone won or lost, its just unAmerican to my thinking.

Dont get me wrong, I dont think liberals are evil, just misguided. They have their heart in the right place, its just that I dont think our federal government is responsible to be the heart of the country?

There is a saying... if you are under 40 and you arent a liberal, then you have no heart, if you are over 40 and you are not a conservative then you have no brains! Liberals are all about heart and compassion and feelings, but I dont believe it is the governments job, no that I am against those ideals, just that the private sector IE communities and churches etc are the place for them to be implimented?

Czuch: I'm sorry Czuch, but that we are all equal or in some respects are is not a liberal idea, it is in fact a religious and philosophical idea based on religious texts and the ideas of certain great thinkers.

For example, the Bible says we are all part of the body of the sonship, just in different positions in relation to that body. So in certain respects we are all equal, but in others we are not.

But being a individual, I stand for what I think and feel and not a party.

(V): but that we are all equal or in some respects are is not a liberal idea


I am not saying liberals think we are all equal, liberals think we all should be and have to be equal or they feel some sort of guilt about it, and do all in their power to remove that guilt by implementing silly rules and laws designed to even the playing field for everyone.... like somehow not keeping score in a game really changes the fact that someone got their butts kicked!hahah

Czuch: Nope. Well seeing as you class me as a 'liberal' I find that complete rubbish. I stand for people having the best openings available to them, no matter what they choose to do. Regardless if it's a public or private boost up.

I really do think you have pre conceived ideas of what liberalism stands for that are wrong.

(V): I really do think you have pre conceived ideas of what liberalism stands for that are wrong.


I am sure I do, and I look forward to finding out what they are? I admit that one problem I have is blanketing all liberals with the broad brush of the far left..... I know just like conservatives there is a continuum from far extreme to moderate, and maybe a place in the middle where they cross. I know there are some fiscal conservatives, for the open and free markets with little government interference who are also socially minded when it comes to welfare etc. and some just the opposite too.

I dont think you though quite have a grasp on what the American liberal actually represents.... as it seems to me to be a bit different from what they are over there?

But let me assure you that generally speaking when you hear about what I refer to as silly rules like no keeping score in youth sports, that 99% of the time comes from the mind of some bleeding heart well intended but misguided liberal!

and it comes from the hippie days of the john lennon 60s where we dream of the day when we all live in a commune and all share in all the chores and grow food for everyone to share and are all happy and sing and hold hands and we give peace a chance... its all a good dream on acid, and those people have grown up and have their own children and they still have their drug induced fantasies and they are trying to implement that fantasy dream into the reality for their children, and they believe if we just make everyone the same with no haves and no have not and no one person better or smarter or faster of richer or poorer, then we will just have this happy magical world.... and some of these people have made their way into politics and have made their idyllic dreams into some laws and rules and regulations.... and in a few years those people will all be dead, and left in their wake we will have a huge mess of mediocrity, and grown children who do not have the instincts for survival or the prowess to strive fro excellence, and America will not be the proud leader and innovater that I grew up with and love!



See now??? Do you see the demons I have to live with every single day of my life??? The demons that I try to fight in here and everywhere I go, day in and day out? Do you see now where i come from??? Somebody anybody please please help me, help me, help me...

Czuch: You think John Lennon invented those ideas of communes and all... they go back to how we use to live before civilization and governments... Though I think some in Israel and other countries still like the idea.

.. Demons tend to be well... just shadows. Mostly made up things that we are just programmed to accept. Eg The McCarthy period in the USA. Mostly they are just made up by the politicians to keep you on their side rather then vote for the other side.

(V): Demons tend to be well... just shadows.

Well I personally know some of those shadows.... yes I even shared some of the cool aid back in the day, thats partly why i am so passionate in my attempts to enlighten people to some of my views.... I am sure i know way more people who have started where I did and become conservatives than there are conservatives who later in life see the light of liberalism

Liberals tend to be idealists, so do young and innocent and frankly, naiive people... idealism may be a fine, acid induced theme for a song or two, but I dont see it as a sound political venue

Czuch: I see certain conservatives that tend to be idealists with no real connection to the real world, with no real idea about what works and what doesn't work. With no real idea of peoples needs or what to do about problems except make up some strange political election promise that will never work.

So, you are trying to tell me that there are idealists in all parties... that's no surprise.

(V): So, you are trying to tell me that there are idealists in all parties... that's no surprise.

I tend to think of myself as a realist, I dont think utopia is achievable nor do I subscribe that we attempt to attain it.

(V): Regardless if it's a public or private boost up.



Well a public boost up usually means ripping the cash right out of my wallet, not so with a private boost up! You never seem to mention the up to 70% taxes some people pay in socialized countries, or the 9 dollar a gallon of gas and the like, its a matter of priorities, government boost costs more money than private boosts do, I prefer to keep more of my own hard earned money to do with as i please and let the private sector take most of the load, leaving the government to do only what is necessary thereafter...

you obviously dont mind handing the government your hard earned money to boost others with, i personally dont think the government is very good at spending money, huge amounts of waste everywhere, you always hear about the $1000 dollars the government spends on a bolt or whatever.. you obviously think your money is best spent by government bureaucrats, my experience is that government bureaucrats are not very thrifty when it comes to spending money, and when it is my money they are spending, well it relly bothers me!

(V): lol, you were happy to put down our education until you realized that it was the government running them that made them bad, now you are for this education I suppose?

Artful Dodger: I know you are a teacher and do your best given the circumstances, but i dont think too many people will argue that in general private schools are better than the government run schools?

Artful Dodger: Children from affluent homes generally do better in school anyway so it stands to reason that private school would fare better.

This is true it seems... affluent parents are likely better educated than non affluent parents, making it more likely that the level of education in the home from the parents is likely higher in affluent homes, helping the child to do better in school than the child from the non affluent home.

I also agree that there are many public schools that do better than private ones, but in general and overall, private has got to win out, even if simply based on the student teacher ratio, i think my school it was something like 8 or 9 to 1!!!

Artful Dodger: Any thoughts on vouchers? I would think that public schools would be happy the more kids they could get out of their system and into private schools, making their student ratio easier to manage?

Artful Dodger: vouchers will only hurt the public schools if they fail to respond by putting their emphasis on producing a superior product, right now with little competition there is no need to have that be their focus and the result is failing school systems

Vikings: I don't have kids,nor do I want them,so I have no clue what this vocher thing is...can someone fill me in,please?? I have heard the term on the news but never paid much mind to it

anastasia: a voucher is a tax credit given to a family of a child that would attend a private school to help pay for it

anastasia: So instead of the portion of the tax revenue that would go to the public school to babysit, I mean teach, your child, that portion of the budget would go to you to use for your child in the private school, and then you would have to pay any balance for the private school out of your own pocket.


How do you feel about not having any children yet still having to pay school taxes?

Czuch: honestly,it doesn't bother me to have to pay school taxes even tho I don't have kids,and never will have kids...I think EVERYONE is entitled to a good education,and if thats what my tax dollars are going to,then I am all for it,sure...

Artful Dodger: You misunderstand my aim, it's not at the teachers, they go into teaching for the passion, and are mostly, with the exceptions of the ones that have ulterior motives,are very good. It's the at the administration level where the problem is

Artful Dodger: Since you have the ability to edit in here, maybe every once in awhile you could add something to the top of the page, something like a suggested topic for the day or week , something to help change the focus of an old debate, or to get something going when it gets slow... kind of like vikes changing the name of a specific board now and again to reflect a certain topic, like is Obama really change we can believe in?

Just an idea!

Czuch: OMG...dare I say that I AGREE that you have a good idea there,LMAO!!!

Artful Dodger: of coarse it is a generalization, there are exceptions, I have heard of a public school that is in a poor community in Texas that had one of the worst records in the country that has changed their focus and is now one of the top in the nation including private, their students go to school up to 10 hours a day

Artful Dodger: exactly, and that size is more cash

Vikings:

Vikings: Is that why under Bush the USA national debt has sky rocketed.

(V): Is that why under Bush the USA national debt has sky rocketed.

Partly because of a war, partly because he didnt stay true to his conservative root, and he acted more like a liberal.

Czuch: I'm sorry, but acted like a liberal? Somehow I doubt if that could be held to be a true summation of his actions while Pres.

And if you were a realist then you'd realise that a multiple party system is part of a democracy and that people will vote based not only on election promises but on the actions of the party whilst in power. That's why the Conservatives over here have found it so hard to get re-elected as the dominant party in UK politics since Maggie Thatcher.

Artful Dodger: doncha just love that word..."KARMA" lol

Bernice: lol.love it so much I have the symbol for it tattooed onto my ankle ;)

anastasia: ROFL.....