Artful Dodger: I thought the birth Of Christ was more important... or maybe that it was just a replacement for various pagan holidays celebrating the coming of the new year.

ie The winter solstice.

anyway.. with the amount of Easter eggs and Easter displays by various companies selling Easter products I'd thought it would be hard to miss.. So why do we need a President confirming an event exists we already know about?

(V):

> I thought the birth Of Christ was more important...

Not for Christians. While Christmas celebrates the arrival of the Saviour, the true miracle, the one miracle that defines Jesus as the Saviour, is resurrection. Easter is supposed to be a solemn celebration of that. Easter eggs are a German late medieval invention, possibly dating from earlier pagan traditions.

Übergeek 바둑이: Mmm without the birth and the declaration within of a child born of God... ... anyways... this whole debate over needing it recognised seems to be very idolatry. Using Easter as just another reason to get angry for no real reason than just wanting to being angry at Obama yet again.

(V): "I thought the birth of Christ was more important"

(V): More important to who? More important to pagan idealists who feel compelled to exchange gifts because it's expected of you? There is more religious "tollerance" around Easter time than there is at Christmas. I can get away with talking about God up until Easter, without hearing all the hate talk I hear at Christmas time. The day after Easter, and you all get back to the business of saying what you really mean.

Iamon_lyme:

> More important to pagan idealists who feel compelled to exchange gifts because it's expected of you?

We have to remember tht in capitalism holidays are in essence retail experiences. Christmas is about buying gifts and giving them. St. Valentine's day (chocolate, flowers, jewelry, etc.), St. Patrick's day (green clothing, beer) , Easter (chocolate and candy), Thanksgiving (food), Christmas (every imaginable consumer good).

Of course, the true believers say to themselves that the gift-giving is not really the reason why they celebrate. However, if for some reason nobody was able to buy gifts, somehow Christmas would not be the same. Advertising has been so pervasive, that people can't tell where consumption ends and religion begins. The funniest thing of all, atheists I know celebrate Chrismas, not to remember Jesus, but so they can exchange gifts and gorge themselves with food. Some people go to Chrismas eve mass so they don't have to feel so guilty about worldy shopping and consumption.

In capitalism everything is for sale, even religion.

Übergeek 바둑이: They tried to introduce grandparents day here... it failed.

btw you missed out St George's day.. but it's not really celebrated as much as St Patrick's day.. especially via the shops and beer sales!!

Iamon_lyme: We don't seem to have the problems you guys in the USA regarding religion, paganism and all the division's. But as the old saying goes.. America turned Christianity from a religion into a business.

(V):

> America turned Christianity from a religion into a business.

I don't think we can blame America for that. The papacy was making a ton of cash well before America was discovered. Christianity has been big business from the time when Crhistianity became the dominant religion in the Roman empire to the present. A good 1,600 years of fattening the coffers.

But then, all religions do the same. All those nice, big mosques cost money, as do synagogues, Hindu temples, Buddhist temples, etc.

Organized religion needs money to grow and cement its power. The only difference in our present era is that religious goods are manufactured in China and sold in Walmart.

Übergeek 바둑이: I know they were, but the whole point of the Protestant movement was freedom away from the RCC and such abuses of religion I thought. I'll have to see if I can catch that prog on UK TV on how with a little training someone can get and be a minister healin' and preachin' in the name of God and raking in 'donations'.

Artful Dodger:

> You need to look at the immediate history of the US and what exactly the early leaders of this country did PUBLICALLY with respect to faith. Seperation (as a concept - remember it's NOT in the constitution - ) doesn't mean silence. To say that it does mean silence is to put meaning into the constitution that never was there (again, history shows us the way).

We also have to remember that when the Constitution was written the USA was a small group of colonies. The early presidents and leaders did not have to contend with the world as it is today. The influx of immigrants as well as 19th century philosphy means that today 25% of the American population are not Christians. The 75% who are Christian are divided into 50% who are Protestant (in a wide variety of denominations) and 25% who are Catholic.

The early legislators did not have to conted with the influx of Irish, Italian, Mexican and other immigrants who brought Catholicism with them. They did not have to deal with MIddle Eastern and African immigrants who brought Islam with them. There are also Hindus and Buddhists.

When the First Ammendment was written the intention was to avoid one Christian denomination having more influence or power than another. The state had no business in favoring one denomination over another. This was the main point of the "wall of seaparation of church and state" that Jefferson alluded to in his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association.

At that time the Danbury Baptists were concerned with the political and economic dominance of the much larger Congregationalist church in Connecticut. They wrote to Jefferson asking why their state constitution had no articles that protected a religious minority from a more powerful religious majority. It was out of that concern that Jefferson wrote his letter in reply to them. Jefferson saw the state as having no business promoting a religion over another.

To insist that the American government promote or favour Christianity over other religions is akin to the situation in those days. The Christian majority over the non-Christian minorities is akin to the Congregationalist majority over the Baptist minority. It is for this reason that the American governments will never make Christianity the state religion, but it is implied that Christianity is very influential due to the fact that the large majority of the polulation is Christian.

Another interesting fact is the Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams. The treaty was signed in late 1796 and ratified by the Senate in 1797. The treaty was written as part of a larger effort to stop piracy in the Mediterranean. Article 11 (a subject of controversy) states that:

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Although issues of translation and wording in the Arabic original have been raised many times, it seems that the early senators saw the separation of religion and politics as important in avoiding wars of religious motivation. It was written at a time when Al Qaeda and their extremism did not exist, but our present leaders could learn from the wording of the treaty.

Clearly the founding fathers wisely realized that religious harmony and tolerance were important in peaceful relations between peoples both at home and abroad. By promoting a religion over others, the state could potentially tilt power in favour of a religion at the expense of minorities. Today the minorities are non-Christian and whether the state favours Christianity is important in continuing the early spirit of the law. People forget that "one nation under God" was added to the pledge of allegiance in 1952 when the Cold War was starting and fear of Communism made people fear the loss of their religious beliefs. Under the current environment there are those who wish the president would come out and say "one nation under a Christian, anti-Moslem God". It would make Christian radicals happy, and it would also destroy the integrity of the First Ammendment.