smelly socks, if they are up front about it "before" the game starts...then I suppose it is OK.

I con only think of two reason that someone would want to use a program:

1. They are playing out of their league but they are soo competative that they MUST win. These people, I pity. They will probably live a life full of disappointment (and cheating).

2. someone has written their own program and want to see just how good it is. As long as these people are up front about it before the game starts, I don't see a problem with it. If the opponents knows it is a computer player...they can accept/reject the offer.

Walter Montego: I think that sums it up.
It's down to trust in the end. I don't mind playing a program if someone is up front about it first.

Well.. I for one don't use any cheap programs.. I play these games for fun.. If I win.. I win.. if I lose.. I still win.. cause of the friendships I have made and the lesson in how I should play next time..

As I remember a lot of us had a very good conversation a few months back about this very thing concerning the moral of it or whether or not it is cheating. Plus the fact that it is just about impossible to police. I was under the impression that it's more or less allowed though it's frowned upon. Is that how it is?

Purple: Yes, this is what I do in fact. We call it the big bet. I and any of my friends that want in on it, pool our money and put it all on the Pass Line for two games of Craps. If it wins, we pick up the money and go celebrate at the bar. If it loses, we spin on our heel and head to the bar to console our loss. :)

I tell people that playing games in a casino is just throwing money away. It's one reason I haven't been to Las Vegas to gamble in 8 years and I can drive there in 4 hours. I was in the Normandy Casino Saturday night. I didn't play any games there either. I was there to see a concert. They had some strange games there. Black Jack where busting didn't mean you automatically lost! I'm sure some of the rules are because of Califonia laws covering so called "Games of Chance". These very laws used to make Stud Poker against the law in California and Draw Poker legal! This has changed, but the house still isn't allowed to bank the games like they do in Nevada. I haven't been to any of the Indian casinos which have a different mandate from the state and they just might be able to. I'd check it, but I've really lost my enthusiasm for casino type gambling. I think the next time I go, I'll head to the sportsbook, find a game that'll be shown shortly, make the big bet on it, sit in the chair and have a few cocktails while enjoying the game.

I remember being in downtown Las Vegas years ago, not far from Binion's and was just strolling along the sidewalk and came across some graffiti sprayed on a wall.

"CROOKED GAMES"

Now, there was one smart vandal! :)

Walter Montego: There is one way to nullify the built in House edge in roulette, BJ, craps..lots of games but no one does it because it is no "fun." Take all the money you have allowed yourself for the night, walk in the door and put the whole thing on one spin of the wheel..black/red it doesn't matter. The house odds which grinds everybody down in the long run do not have time to kick in on one spin..they are nearly 50/50.

philip: Actually that's not true except in certain cases while playing one particular game: Black Jack. It is perfectly fair to count cards in Poker and you'd be fool not to act on what you learn from the showing cards in Stud Poker variants. If you mean the card counnting system of Thorpe's, I have heard of people being barred from a casino when the management catches wind of it. I have sat at the table playing Black Jack and have said outloud at a volume the dealer and any players at the table could hear said, "Let's see that's two Aces, means there's two left." I've never had any pit boss or dealer tell me that I was doing anything wrong. Has that been your experience? I've also watched numerous people count the numbers in roulette, but that's similar to counting the dice in Craps. Black Jack is different because the cards that have gone by so far will affect the odds on the hands to be dealt next from the deck. Some casinos even hand out little Basic Strategy charts for players to follow! Why a casino would want a smarter gambler is beyond me, but I have seen the charts. Very much the same a Thorpe's Basic chart. Telling you when to hit, stand, double down and stuff. The card counting can be used to change your play, but Thorpe was a big proponent of adjusting one's wager. When the odds were in the player's favor, he bet big. It takes a long run for his system to work and a lot of studying and thinking on the fly. It really is work. I still have the original hard cover book, but I never wanted to trouble myself with all that stuff. Easier to drink beer and whiskey while playing the dealer for a ten in the hole and assume he'd hit a ten too. As simple as this strategy is, some people will still bust when the dealer has a five for his up card.

philip: Exactly my point. Odds are always in favor of the house if you don't count cards, but they can't know you are doing that unless you win too many hands or unless they are psychic and can literally read your mind. If you consistently win then they will know you have system to overcome the house advantage.

The idea of card counting doesn't work in backgammon though, because each time you roll there's nothing to add or subtract from the previous roll. The real thinking here is in guessing your best position based on what could happen in the next roll, and each next roll has the same possibilities. I'm not a computer guy or know much about game theory, but I am mildly autistic...

he he he he..I can't wait to see the response to this. :_

Cranky Franky: IN ANY DECENT casino in VEGAS,you will be KICKED OUT AND BARRED for card counting!!!!..and is that not'just chance'

Jason: I don't know how a program like that can work either, but a person and a program would have one thing in common...Neither one can know for certain what the next numbers will be, but only what they could be and how it could affect your position. It seems to involve a lot of what if thinking, but nothing as precise as the kind of thinking needed in chess. In chess I know why I'm making a move, in backgammon it's more a matter of knowing what could happen next.

I still dont understand how a programme could beat anyone at backgammon , unless it had some knowledge on possible rolls that would appear in a certain sequence , i have tried to work out these move patterns over a long period of time now and i cant find a pattern as to the rolls , only the ones that will roll you a double six ect when thats the only possible non move for you lol

Pedro Martínez: Thanks Pedro, my Dad told me, "son, you do not have to always be right, you just need to always want to be right".

For a long time I didnt fully understand that statement. Then it dawned on me .........Clay listen and learn from others so you can be right.

A closed mind is a horrible thing to have.

You have my deepest respect, Clay. I consider the ability to admit one's mistake one of the greatest characteristics of a human being.

Walter Montego:Yes, please, gravy on those potatoes.

I just fell into the trap of not considering what others were saying and being so dang sure I was correct. It will be a while before I make that mistake again. The one thing I have learned on BK is, there are a lot of intelligent people on here that deserve and need to be listened to.

I have just never considered cheating and assumed that no one else would either. I love learning the games and improving and developing new skills. What you, Jules and Pedro said makes a lot of sense. I was JUST thinking of the DICE ODDS. My Bad.

ClayNashvilleTn: Oh, there's plenty of odds to the dice, but there's lots more to Backgammon than that. If you don't see that, you'll not advance to the top of the list any time soon. I'm a Craps player from way back, and what I know about odds has helped me make a decision on a move from time to time, but the important things about Backgammon and what seperate it from a game of pure chance such as Craps, that Jules was talking about will determine who's the better player over the long run. Anybody can get lucky at rolling the dice, but in Craps it only matters for each game or roll depending on how you're betting. In Backgammon there's planning involved and sometimes one's plans change because of good or bad fortune during the game. In Craps, the important thing is to get lucky and proper money management. There's no planning gamewise, unless you call taking odds on the shooter's point planning, that is. :)

Now, as far as a program helping one play Backgammon, what is so hard to understand about that? If you play just one move ahead without thinking further into the game, you're not going to do well when you play me. I'm sure a computer could be designed to pretend every roll possible for a few turns and then use some sort of decision table to pick the best course of action considering the roll that it has on the turn at that moment. That's what I'd do.<>>>>

AS I'm typing this I see that you've done some research on it. Would you like some mashed potatoes with that crow? I hate when that happens to me, but it helps me learn things. :)

I think I must hold the record for apologies. I wish all these months I had kept count. I bet I could be in the McGinnis world record book by now!

OH, well a little humbling never hurt anyone. It keeps us grounded.

ClayNashvilleTn: :)

Andre Faria: Andre Faria:You are exactly right. I was speaking when I should have been listening. I started playing in August and thought I had it all figured out.

In all honesty I do apologize to everyone.

Fencer you need to recant your answer to TULIP.
Dang I can't be the only one looking bad in this exchange.

ClayNashvilleTn: Hum... I think you must apologize... LOL

I just went on Google and found several programs. I honestly didn't think they would help. You guys need to copy and paste this confession in a private file for later use.

"I WAS WRONG THIS ONE TIME"

I love my crow well done. Try to get the middle done as well. I also ask that you remove all feathers first.

ClayNashvilleTn: I bet Pedro could beat any computer and so could anyone else that learn and play the odds.

You guess wrong.............
One of the world's best Backgammon players think that: "I have no doubt that GNU Backgammon 2-ply would show a positive result if given enough time vs. any human player in match play."
--Neil Kazaross

From http://www.gnubg.org

ClayNashvilleTn: No, because position can demand that you ignore what he might roll. Only maybe in 6 or 7 turns may I be interested and only if he drops a free one that I can knock off.

Hey even I can win backgammon against a computer! Ive played a few times against a computer & it was soooooooo easy it was boring!

People using programs to cheat usually don't tell on themselves, so maybe there is another reason he told you he using a program. Anyone using a program learns little about playing, but for some people winning is more important than anything else. I've played chess with people I know were using programs for making moves. They aren't weren't smarter after playing with programs than they were before they started, so as far as I am concerned I'm not the one who loses something.

Why would he tell you he was cheating if he was really cheating?

OK, spill the beans, I'll play him and beat him like a drum? hehehehehe well maybe, I am still learning.

Jules: all based on the odds of what your opponent "MIGHT" roll on his next turn. All good players figure that in their head Jules.

It is a way to get your money. I bet Pedro could beat any computer and so could anyone else that learn and play the odds.

ClayNashvilleTn: Backgammon is also about position building blocks and many other things, whether it's better to move the back counters, to leave them them there, whether to make a run, etc.

Jules: They both are all about the roll of the dice. In that essence they are the same.

ClayNashvilleTn: We are not talking about Craps, we are talking about Backgammon.

Andre Faria:
They can predict the future.....
That's why it is cheating

Pedro Martínez: Not since I told them the odds. It is an odds game! That same computer would also tell an inexperienced person how to roll craps. The trick is to learn the odds and learn the game. The guy with the computer will never learn, "IF" he indeed has one.

how can these programes simulate the roll dice. I mean, how do they know my roll dice?

Clay: Using a REAL good backgammon program can help a lot, especially not so experienced players. Like they will tell you what's the best move when you roll 64 as your opening roll...

ClayNashvilleTn: Clay there are Powerful programs that can defeat the top Backgammon players out there... This is a fact.

They are not free mind you :)

Lets look at what we know for fact.

There are no useful programs that can help in any dice game.

Fencer advised you to not to worry about it because he knows that for a fact.

Don't get upset over some clown claiming he has one because he doesn't.

If he does he probably needs one to get out of bed too.

This is a non issue.

philip: Not as much if you are using a program if nothing at all really as the person cheating has not done the work. But.. on the other hand if you beat someone who is cheating. :)

Lamby: If they are using something to aide them in any dice game, I know where they can get some Snake Oil that cures every disease known to man. Send me $50.00 and I will send it to you.

Las Vegas wouldn't exist if that was true.

Jules: but WHAT do our rankings mean,on here if people are using programmes??..what??

Lamby: i couldnt agree more - well said

I don't understand, why does anyone want to use a programe? Surely it takes all of the fun out of playing? If you win its not even your victory! Besides winning shouldn't be the most important thing when playing a game, in my opinion, it should be about enjoying the game! Its not life or death, its just a bit of fun! Well thats what I think anyway! :o)

philip:If he has one, it's because he failed 9th grade Math. You dont need one. Your better players dont use them. They know the odds from books, the internet, or just common knowledge. They use the odds in making their moves. Copy what I just sent you and use it. That isn't cheating. it's knowing the odds of an opponent landing on you if you move your piece in any location on the board.

philip & Jules, I'll have to take your word for that, I've never seen a backgammon programme running. Maybe I'm missing something.

philip: From what I read he gets a neural net program that learns by playing against itself.

And yes, I did post more info, but I thought best not to in the end.

ClayNashvilleTn: so,where does that put mr rubbish player useing a computer programme to make moves,exactly????????

All a computer could tell you is:

There are two ways to make the three and eleven.
There are three ways to make the four and ten.
There are four ways to make the five and nine.
There are five ways to make the six and eight.
There are six ways to make the seven.

Your better players know this from experience and thus have the higher scores.

harley: thats not true programmes if your not good CAN and DO help,also what does our ranking mean if using said programmes is allowed???

harley: No a program that is trained to play the dice in the best fashion in backgammom would help... But it spoils the fun of playing the game.

Tulip: b>Tulip:There has been a bit of confusion on whether someone has figured a system in Ponds too, but it was admitted Friday that it wasn't true. There's a lot of TALK about such things. It would be impossible to have any kind of aide in any dice game.

There is a site on the Internet for choosing the right move in Backgammon based on the odds of a particular number being rolled by your opponent. But that's just an odds thing and most people experienced in any dice game know the possibilities of each roll just by experience.