Iamon lyme: Logic does not dictate that. Pure logic excepts a certain uncertainty in things of the world, yes/no/or/and\or.. otherwise some tools like the one you are using now cannot work. Pure philosophical logic knows nothing and yet knows everything...

Is this sure fire cure for headaches the one you use?

Iamon lyme: But they are not our options. they may be your options.. but others may have more than two. Nor does it mean they are relevant options.

Yes, computers are tools, but the mind that created them was not. It was alive... unless, are the aliens telling you different??

Iamon lyme: Or the tool? Or God not knowing that which is, just believing. Like Constantine when a solar event made him (through the help of an advisor) decide to worship the Son of God rather than the Sun?

Or should we fear the tool? Like when the American manufacturers were approached by two US boffins who'd designed the first robotic arms because of sci fi films of the era.... the two guys went to Japan and made a mint.

The Col: Me thinks the protestation is a bit much and over 'played'.

JungleBurger: Thinking he exists makes no sense. Just as believing God exists.

I thought the idea was to just 'know'.

As to God's image.. mmmm not male (as The Jewish say.. the sex of God is just in relation to his relationship with us) .. not a man. The image part is describing our ability to be and rise above being unthinking creatures.

as many philosophers say, surrendering does not mean to stop thinking, but instead to see your thinking and to let it go.

Iamon lyme: Neither is the Bible... it's just a tool book, the cross.. just an icon, the ten commandments... just words. Yet many people who say they are men (or women) of God keep saying these are sacred. We must do this.. because the Bible says so..

But if so, then they have in fact abandoned the first principle of being Children of God. Freedom to be an unmoved mover

No-one mentioned worshipping a 'shrine'... or as commonly known, a statue or sculpture. Just showing a mark of respect to someone who helped save lives and 'invented' the ideas behind modern computing.

Like with war cemeteries.. shall we take all the acknowledgements down given to those who have fallen in defence of others?

"So, depending on whether you believe in God or not, here are our options... we can worship a God who created us in His image, or we can be the gods who create tools in our image."

who says there are only two options? This is a world of colour not of monochrome as rightly pointed here...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6gthQuogUA

Good film by the way..

Turing is shown holding an apple—a symbol classically used to represent forbidden love, the object that inspired Isaac Newton's theory of gravitation, and the means of Turing's own death. The cast bronze bench carries in relief the text 'Alan Mathison Turing 1912–1954', and the motto 'Founder of Computer Science' as it would appear if encoded by an Enigma machine: 'IEKYF ROMSI ADXUO KVKZC GUBJ'.

A plinth at the statue's feet says 'Father of computer science, mathematician, logician, wartime codebreaker, victim of prejudice'. There is also a Bertrand Russell quotation saying 'Mathematics, rightly viewed, possesses not only truth, but supreme beauty—a beauty cold and austere, like that of sculpture.' The sculptor buried his old Amstrad computer, which was an early popular home computer, under the plinth, as a tribute to "the godfather of all modern computers".[91]

In 1999, Time Magazine named Turing as one of the 100 Most Important People of the 20th century for his role in the creation of the modern computer, and stated: "The fact remains that everyone who taps at a keyboard, opening a spreadsheet or a word-processing program, is working on an incarnation of a Turing machine."[2] Turing is featured in the 1999 Neal Stephenson novel "Cryptonomicon."

In 2002, Turing was ranked twenty-first on the BBC nationwide poll of the 100 Greatest Britons.[92] In 2006 British writer and mathematician Ioan James chose Turing as one of twenty people to feature in his book about famous historical figures who may have had some of the traits of Asperger's syndrome.[93] In 2010, actor/playwright Jade Esteban Estrada portrayed Turing in the solo musical, "ICONS: The Lesbian and Gay History of the World, Vol. 4.". In 2011, in the Guardian's "My hero" series, writer Alan Garner chose Turing as his hero and described how they had met whilst out jogging in the early 1950s. Garner remembered Turing as "funny and witty" and said that he "talked endlessly". [94]

In February 2011, Turing's papers from the Second World War were bought for the nation with an 11th-hour bid by the National Heritage Memorial Fund, allowing them to stay at Bletchley Park.[95]

The logo of Apple Computer is often erroneously referred to as a tribute to Alan Turing, with the bite mark a reference to his method of suicide.[96] Both the designer of the logo[97] and the company deny that there is any homage to Turing in the design of the logo.[98] In Series I, Episode 13 of the British television quiz show QI presenter Stephen Fry recounted a conversation had with Steve Jobs, saying that Jobs' response was, "It isn't true, but God, we wish it were."

The Col: He's the guy who's brain cracked the Germans Enigma machine.He, and Bletchley Park were a big BIG secret during WWII and for many years after. It wasn't till the 70's that some form of recognition was given to the people who broke the German codes, and helped the USA break the Japanese codes.

Without him WWII would have probably gone on for an extra 2 to 4 years, with an estimated extra loss of life of 14-28 million in Europe.

2012 is billed as the "Alan Turing Year," and a lengthy compendium of past and future Alan Turing events can be found at the Centenary site hosted by the United Kingdom's Mathematics Trust. The big gathering taking place right now is the Alan Turing Centenary Conference in Manchester.

Be sure to read Turing's provocative 1950 essay, "Computing Machinery and Intelligence," progenitor of the famous Turing Test. "I PROPOSE to consider the question, 'Can machines think?,'" Turing asked. "This should begin with definitions of the meaning of the terms 'machine' and 'think.'" Turing Test contests have been all the rage ever since. There's even an opera about the test.

If you love museums, the Bletchley Park National Code Centre and the Museum of Manchester host a "Alan Turing and Life's Enigma" exhibit. The Spencer Museum of Art in Kansas has an online offering titled Cryptograph: An Exhibition for Alan Turing. And the Heinz Nixdorf MuseumsForum has a show named "Eminent & enigmatic—10 aspects of Alan Turing."

A docudrama film about Turing, called Codebreaker, tracks his accomplishments and the deep psychological struggles that Turing went through in the last years of his life.

An excellent short biography of Turing is kept by Andrew Hodges, author of Alan Turing: The Enigma. In addition to Hodges' bio, there is David Leavitt's The Man Who Knew Too Much: Alan Turing and the Invention of the Computer and George Dyson's Turing's Cathedral: The Origins of the Digital Universe, which focuses on Turing's intellectual influence. Also see: Cambridge University Press's republication of his mother Sara's biography of her son: Alan M. Turing.

A man never to be forgotten.

Rupert Murdoch joined in an "over-crude" attempt by US Republicans to force Tony Blair to accelerate British involvement in the Iraq war a week before a crucial House of Commons vote in 2003, according to the final volumes of Alastair Campbell's government diaries.

In another blow to the media mogul, who told the Leveson inquiry that he had never tried to influence any prime minister, Campbell's diary says Murdoch warned Blair in a phone call of the dangers of a delay in Iraq. The disclosure by Campbell, whose diaries are serialised in the Guardian, will pile the pressure on Murdoch in light of his evidence to the Leveson inquiry.

The Cabinet Office released information on Friday that raised doubts about Murdoch's claim that Gordon Brown pledged to "declare war" on News Corporation after the Sun abandoned its support for Labour in September 2009. It supported Brown's claim that he never made such a threat by saying that the only phone call between the two men during the period took place on 10 November 2009 and focused on Afghanistan.

Murdoch tweeted in response: "I stand by every word is aid [sic] at Leveson." But there will be fresh questions about one of Murdoch's most memorable declarations from his appearance before the inquiry in April. The founder of News Corporation said: "I've never asked a prime minister for anything."

Campbell wrote that on 11 March 2003, a week before the Commons vote in which MPs voted to deploy British troops to Iraq, Murdoch intervened to try to persuade Blair to move more quickly towards war. "[Tony Blair] took a call from Murdoch who was pressing on timings, saying how News International would support us, etc," Campbell wrote. "Both TB and I felt it was prompted by Washington, and another example of their over-crude diplomacy. Murdoch was pushing all the Republican buttons, how the longer we waited the harder it got." The following day, 12 March, he wrote: "TB felt the Murdoch call was odd, not very clever."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2012/jun/15/rupert-murdoch-tony-blair-iraq-alastair-campbell?intcmp=239

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHAwbYpRGkQ&feature=related

synopsis.. replace American Dream with fear.

U.S. Aid to Anti-Communist Rebels:
The "Reagan Doctrine" and Its Pitfalls

by Ted Galen Carpenter

Ted Galen Carpenter is a foreign policy analyst with the Cato Institute.

Proponents of the Reagan Doctrine, such as Jeane Kirkpatrick, Michael Ledeen, and Charles Krauthammer, contend that U.S. assistance to anti-communist insurgencies in the Third World would serve three beneficial purposes. First, it would enhance U.S. security by tying down Soviet-bloc military resources and perhaps reversing Soviet expansionist gains. Second, it would achieve these objectives without serious military risk or financial cost to the United States. Finally, it would promote the growth of democracy throughout the Third World.[54] All three contentions are open to serious question.

It is difficult to see how the Reagan Doctrine would bolster U.S. security; indeed, the opposite result is far more likely. Most Third World struggles take place in arenas and involve issues far removed from legitimate American security needs. U.S. involvement in such conflicts expands the republic's already overextended commitments without achieving any significant prospective gains. Instead of draining Soviet military and financial resources, we end up dissipating our own.

Moreover, contrary to the sanguine assumptions of Kirkpatrick and Krauthammer, implementation of the Reagan Doctrine promises to be a costly undertaking. The sums now being discussed are no more than a down payment on a long-term policy. If the intent is to overthrow hostile governments, it will be necessary to provide funds and equipment to insurgents in quantities sufficient to give them a reasonable chance of victory. Most analysts concede that the funding levels contemplated for UNITA ($15-40 million) and the contras ($100 million) are woefully inadequate. Even the annual subsidy of $250-300 million to the mujaheddin seems insufficient to do more than prolong the existing military stalemate. Unless the United States cynically contemplates using such insurgencies merely as pawns to annoy the USSR, military-assistance programs amounting to several billion dollars will be required.

The prospects for the Reagan Doctrine promoting democracy in the Third World are no more promising; again, an intrusive U.S. military policy is likely to produce the opposite result. The Reagan Doctrine threatens to become a corollary to America's longstanding policy of supporting "friendly" autocratic regimes. Administration leaders exhibit a willingness to endorse and assist any insurgent movement that professes to be anti-Soviet, without reference to its attitude toward political or economic rights. The United States has already antagonized Third World populations by sponsoring repressive governments and may incur even more enmity as the patron of authoritarian, albeit anti-Marxist, insurgencies. Such a strategy is hardly an effective way to promote the popularity of democratic capitalism.

The Reagan Doctrine entails a variety of risks and burdens while offering few discernible benefits to the United States. It is a blueprint for unpredictable and potentially perilous entanglements in complex Third World affairs. Proponents of the doctrine seem determined to imitate Moscow's techniques of subversion without considering its adverse consequences.

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa074.html

.. It was about why the country changed from a hippy's dream where a foreigner could walk without fear of harm, to the mess we have now.

It wasn't Islam as some try and shift the blame onto, but the Cold War.

Both the USSR and America tried to buy favour with the Afghanistan people as it was to them a strategic country, with Pakistan on one side and Iran on the other.

As we all know, the USSR won the war of words with a communist government being elected into power. So the USA did what they always did in such situations and started arming anybody who didn't like the Russians and communism. They played the religion card, using the atheism of communism which had alarmed some Afghan Muslims.

As US National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski told the local muhajhideen...

"We know of their deep belief in God, and we are confident their struggle will succeed. That land over there is yours, you’ll go back to it one day because your fight will prevail, and you’ll have your homes and your mosques back again. Because your cause is right and God is on your side."

... Aid increased to over a billion dollars per years.

One point seems to be stated by various officials of the time. It was a matter of revenge for the USA to help the Afghan Insurgents.

"We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would... That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Soviets into the Afghan trap... The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter, "We now have the opportunity of giving to the Soviet Union its Vietnam War."

They trained the anti communist forces in the use of IED's. Which as we all know is being used on our troops today.

Russian soldiers who fought in the war have words of advice to our forces....
.... get out, you can't win. No-one has ever conquered Afghanistan.

Übergeek 바둑이: I know you were , hence the clip in the end from Hot fuzz

.. When you see people in the USA shooting others over facebook, you get to wonder how sane the laws are that allow nutters to freely buy guns.

But I guess many Americans would object to having their sanity tested!!

Übergeek 바둑이: Very unlikely. In a country where it is the norm to be able to have a gun, things will not change over night.

"or that an act by a psychopath can be used to justify saying that the law is wrong?"

The likes of the NRA might say so. But more guns in the civilian population will mean more gun related crimes compared to a country with strict guns laws.

Except (eg the UK) in the country as this clip shows!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ka5pedLmLs

Question: "What does the Bible say about torture?"

Answer: Torture can be defined as “the infliction of intense pain to punish, to coerce, or to derive sadistic pleasure.” Of course, sadism is never appropriate or just, but what about punishment or coercion? Is there ever a time when inflicting pain is justified in order to punish wrongdoing or to obtain a confession? What does the Bible say?

The Bible acknowledges the existence of torture. In a parable, Jesus spoke of a servant who was “turned . . . over to the jailers to be tortured” (Matthew 18:34). Such an allusion seems to indicate that the use of torture was common in the prisons of the day. The Bible also records the stories of many victims of torture: Jesus, Paul and Silas (Acts 16), the prophet Jeremiah (Jeremiah 20:2; 38:6), and other unnamed saints (Hebrews 11:35). In every case, we see that the godly are the victims of torture, never the perpetrators of torture.

As individuals, we are not to seek revenge. Vengeance belongs only to the Lord (Psalm 94:1; Romans 12:19). Also, as individuals we have no authority to punish society’s wrongdoers or to extract confessions from them. Therefore, as individuals, we can have no license to torture; inflicting intense pain on others is wrong. God alone is able to mete out punishment with perfect justice, and it is His prerogative to make His punishment painful. Demons are aware of a future time of “torture” for themselves (Matthew 8:29). Hell is a place of “torment” and intense agony (Matthew 13:42; Luke 16:23-24). During the Tribulation, torment will be part of the plagues upon evildoers (Revelation 9:5; 11:10). In any of His judgments, God is holy and perfectly fair (Psalm 119:137).

Artful Dodger: I didn't say that. I said I was not happy to commit an act of torture.

"But at least you can say you didn't use torture against thugs, murderers, evil men!"

And become a thug, murderer and evil man in the process. Wow... Quite happy to be hellbound aren't you? Just like the Muslim version of "the book people".

"Trying to kill known terrorists. BTW, your government has the same policy as does the USA. "

Yes it does, but we are still accountable to the likes of the Geneva convention and other things.

I mean... you keep avoiding the point but, how does this idea of death and murder sit with what's in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

.. it doesn't does it. Just as suicide bombers are breaking the word of Muhammed.

Artful Dodger: So you'd quite happily become what you say you are against!!

Hasn't history taught you anything... In the end killing does not work. You can't kill an idea.

If the USA did what you thought was a good idea, it'd have to be labelled as a terrorist state. Well, it'd have to be labelled as a state that has gone from using others (dictators/drug lords, etc) to direct acts of murder and terror.

N' in the process you'd be abandoning Jesus. Becoming an example of what is written of 'righteous' men gone wacko.. as written!!

Nope... just pointing out that you seem to like the idea of killing so much.

Not very Christian.

Artful Dodger: What ever happened to "though shall not kill". That you say it's ok to kill the terrorists just like they say it's ok to kill anyone who they see as an enemy.

"I'm on the side of the innocent."

No just on the side of what is called 'blood lust'. If you were on the side of the innocents then you wouldn't say this...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Would you be happy to have them tortured as 'legally' sanction by the US government to find out where those kids are??"

No, I'd rather see the bus load of kids murdered. Can't have torture even if innocent people will die. Even kids. Doesn't matter. Let the kids die.


It seems like you just wanna kill islamists, just like the crusaders from old!!

Artful Dodger: Really.... you really think that!! You'd shot someone on an island and stand face to face to their family and say ... "it's ok I didn't break any laws"..

"Also, if we just built a ship to the moon, put all the bad guys on it, landed it on the moon with a limited amount of oxygen, they'd all die and it's not against the law."

Sounds like the Nazi's excusing the gas chambers.

"and they could get laid that very night by one of their 72 virgins. "

Like Revelations promising Christians they all go to heaven, yet all the rest of the world is burning and damned!!...

"And I didn't watch the chainsaw thing. So you have me at a disadvantage. I don't watch that crap."

Not even the likes of the George Romero Zombie films?

Artful Dodger: That would be murder, and a complete loss of moral high ground...

You didn't nick the idea from a movie like "The Texas Chainsaw Massacre" did you?

Artful Dodger: I'm just curious over why after 3 years odd of you supporting torture, you've now developed some common humanity on the subject.

... so you are admitting you were wrong?

Artful Dodger: Funny... it seems the recent and past posts of you stating that water boarding was torture and you supported it's use have ''''vanished'''!!

...almost... examples encapsulated in replies..."You say its torture, I say it's not. I want my government to have in its toolbox the right, under presidential order, to use waterboarding."

You've found 'Jesus' on torture

Artful Dodger: Ok.... so lets go back in history to past uses of water boarding and the consequences there of...

"After the Spanish American War of 1898 in the Philippines, the U.S. army used waterboarding, called the "water cure" at the time. It is not clear where this practice came from; it probably was adopted from the Filipinos, who themselves adopted it from the Spanish.[105] Reports of "cruelties" from soldiers stationed in the Philippines led to Senate hearings on U.S. activity there.

Testimony described the waterboarding of Tobeniano Ealdama "while supervised by ...Captain/Major Edwin F. Glenn (Glenn Highway)."[106]

Elihu Root, United States Secretary of War, ordered a court martial for Glenn in April 1902."[107] During the trial, Glenn "maintained that the torture of Ealdama was 'a legitimate exercise of force under the laws of war.'"[106]

Though some reports seem to confuse Ealdama with Glenn,[108] Glenn was found guilty and "sentenced to a one-month suspension and a fifty-dollar fine," the leniency of the sentence due to the "circumstances" presented at the trial.[106]

President Theodore Roosevelt privately rationalized the instances of "mild torture, the water cure" but publicly called for efforts to "prevent the occurrence of all such acts in the future.""

"The use of "third degree interrogation" techniques to compel confession, ranging from "psychological duress such as prolonged confinement to extreme violence and torture", was widespread in early American policing. Lassiter classified the water cure as "orchestrated physical abuse",[110] and described the police technique as a "modern day variation of the method of water torture that was popular during the Middle Ages". The technique employed by the police involved either holding the head in water until almost drowning, or laying on the back and forcing water into the mouth or nostrils.[110] Such techniques were classified as "'covert' third degree torture" since they left no signs of physical abuse, and became popular after 1910 when the direct application of physical violence to force a confession became a media issue and some courts began to deny obviously compelled confessions."

"Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[117] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again... I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."[38] The United States hanged Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American prisoners of war."

"Waterboarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in the Vietnam War.[122] On 21 January 1968, The Washington Post published a controversial front-page photograph of two U.S soldiers and one South Vietnamese soldier participating in the waterboarding of a North Vietnamese POW near Da Nang.[123] The article described the practice as "fairly common".[123] The photograph led to the soldier being court-martialled by a U.S. military court within one month of its publication, and he was discharged from the army.[122][124] Another waterboarding photograph of the same scene, referred to as "water torture" in the caption, is also exhibited in the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City.[125]"

"The South African Truth and Reconciliation Commission received testimony from Charles Zeelie and Jeffrey Benzien, officers of the South African Police under Apartheid, that they used waterboarding, referred to as "tubing", or the "wet bag technique" on political prisoners as part of a wide range of torture methods to extract information.[131][132]:pp.206 Specifically, a cloth bag was wet and placed over victim's heads, to be removed only when they were near asphyxiation; the procedure was repeated several times.[131][132]:pp.206 The TRC concluded that the act constituted torture and a gross human rights violation, for which the state was responsible..."

....................Now, if all these courts and cases state that water boarding is torture and illegal, and as such a war crime......

... How can you say it is not?

"Speaking of kids, do you have any? lets say you do and they are 4 and 5 and have been burried alive in a small container with limited oxygen (4 hours). You have the guy who burried them."

Well what about the other way around.... you have older kids.. 4 or 5 of them that have chosen to join some 'cult' and have kidnapped a school bus full of kids.

One gets seen and captured by the authorities. He won't tell anyone where they are.... Would you be happy to have them tortured as 'legally' sanction by the US government to find out where those kids are??

........................ as quoted often... Jesus... Caesar... law of land.

One of your kids is a spy and gets caught. By the law of this other land, torture is allowed.

That then by the right wingers here is ok and legal.

But the pit keeps staring back.

"""Secret CIA video tapes of the waterboarding of Osama Bin Laden's suspected jihadist travel arranger Abu Zubaydah show him vomiting and screaming, the BBC has learned.

The tapes were destroyed by the head of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, Jose Rodriguez.

In an exclusive interview for Newsnight, Rodriguez has defended the destruction of the tapes and denied waterboarding and other interrogation techniques amount to torture.

The CIA tapes are likely to become central to the trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of 9/11, at Guantanamo Bay.

When Khalid Sheikh Mohammed appeared before a special military tribunal at Guantanamo Bay last Saturday, he refused to put on the headphones that would enable him to hear the translator.

His civilian attorney, David Nevin, said he could not wear them because of the torture he had suffered during his interrogation."""

Mr Rodriguez states that all the waterboarding applications took less then 10 seconds each and the total time was less than 60 minutes.

That's a possible 360 times then...

.. anyone saying waterboarding is ok here on this board willing to go through 360 drownings?

Christopher Hitchens in his try of this torture via Vanity Fair has some views on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58

In light of emails and evidence given at the Leveson inquiry, It appears the Conservatives didn't know what to do about the phone hacking....

... So they asked News Corp what should No. 10's (that's Downing street .. aka the PM's residence) position be!!

... An inquiry was thought to be not a good idea.. too many skeletons.

Aviva suffered a major shareholder revolt today after more than half
of the votes at its annual meeting failed to back the insurer's pay
awards.

In another sign of growing investor activism, the defeat came despite chief executive Andrew Moss this week waiving a near-5 per cent pay rise which would have taken his annual salary over the £1 million mark.

Some 50 per cent of votes placed outside the AGM went against the pay report, while an additional 9 per cent were withheld, in one of the biggest ever shareholder protest votes.

The remuneration report would have been thrown out completely had new measures to give shareholders binding votes, as put forward by Business Secretary Vince Cable and backed by investor groups included the Association of British Insurers, been brought into effect.

The embarrassing defeat follows a similar showdown between shareholders and banking giant Barclays, in which nearly a third of votes failed to back its remuneration report after chief executive Bob Diamond took a £17.7 million pay package for 2011.

Similar scenes were playing out at Hovis to Mr Kipling owner Premier Foods' annual meeting, where just over 30 per cent of shareholder votes failed to back the remuneration report.

Premier, which saw its shares slide around 70 per cent throughout 2011, paid around £3.5 million to its executives last year, including a £1.9 million "golden hello" for new chief executive Michael Clarke when he joined eight months ago.

Back at Aviva, Mr Moss was awarded a 4.6 per cent rise in March on his £960,000 annual salary but has decided not to accept the increase following talks with major investors.

Mr Moss was also awarded a £1.2 million bonus, equal to 120 per cent of salary, while Trevor Matthews, Aviva UK chief executive, was awarded a £45,000 bonus despite just joining the board on December 2.

Aviva chairman Lord Sharman apologised to shareholders at the AGM for ignoring their views when setting executive pay.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/shareholders-reject-aviva-pay-plans-7711853.html

....... In these days of austerity measures, why do those at the top of the pay ladder (like Oliver Twist) want more?

Digging their own hole comes to mind.

Alert... aLeRt.... ALERT>>>>>

This clip contains severe browning!!!

The Talented Mr Shorten...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=557_1335621847

Local elections in some areas today.. No wonder the Conservatives didn't want to blast Murdoch.

After the expenses scandal, the Conservatives are known to have a dishonest streak.

Well.... The Conservatives are worried about support and what dirt Murdoch can dish out on them, and they need the papers he controls to support them. Otherwise the Conservatives have no real chance at the next election.

... Seeing as NI took as it's duty to gather dirt on anyone they can.. and they are already starting to start telling on how the Conservatives have been playing a game of scratch my back...

Murdoch might have a few embarrassing emails... It's already bad for the PM.

.. After the expenses scandal, and the amount of immoral expenses use..

The bombshell is on page 70 of the report by the Culture Media and Sport Select Committee into News International and phone-hacking.

It is worth quoting in full:

"If at all relevant times, Rupert Murdoch did not take steps to become fully informed about phone-hacking, he turned a blind eye and exhibited wilful blindess to what was going on in his companies and publications.

"This culture, we consider, permeated from the top throughout the organisation and speaks volumes about the lack of effective corporate governance at News Corporation and News International.

We conclude therefore that Rupert Murdoch is not a fit person to exercise the stewardship of a major international company".

That description of Mr Murdoch by the British parliament as "not a fit person" is likely to have significant consequences.

It will force the board of News Corporation to review whether the 81 year-old, who created one of the most powerful media groups the world has ever seen, should remain as its executive chairman.

It will give ammunition to those News Corporation shareholders who would like to loosen the hold over the company of the Murdoch dynasty.

It will push Ofcom, the media regulator, closer to the conclusion that British Sky Broadcasting is not fit and proper to hold a broadcasting licence, for as long as News Corporation owns 39% of BSkyB.
'Savage criticism'

Nor is that the only one of the MPs' conclusions which will shake News Corporation, and its British subsidiary, News International, owner of the Sun tabloid and of the News of the World prior to its closure.

Mr Murdoch's right hand man for decades, Les Hinton, is deemed to have misled the committee in 2009 by "not telling the truth" about substantial payments to Clive Goodman - the News of the World's former royal reporter who was jailed for phone hacking- and how he authorised those payments.

Mr Hinton is also ruled to have "misled" the committee about the extent of his knowledge that phone hacking extended beyond Clive Goodman and Glenn Mulcaire (the private detective who carried out the hacking on behalf of jounalists).

He is, say MPs, "complicit in the cover-up at News International".

As expected, the MPs are savage in their criticism of the former News of the World editor, Colin Myler, and of Tom Crone, the former legal manager of News International's newspapers, for misleading them about what they knew about phone hacking and for failing to pursue alleged hackers.

But more damaging for News Corporation is that MPs say that senior executives, such as Rupert Murdoch's son James, should have seen that the company's official view, that there was a single rogue hacker, was not sustainable.

The MPs say: "if there was a 'don't ask, don't tell' culture at News International, the whole affair demonstrates huge failings of corporate governance at the company and its parent, News Corporation".

The committee says that News International "wished to buy silence" by settling legal actions with victims of hacking that included confidentiality clauses.


>>>>>> In other words a corrupt organisation.

Word of the week.

Cackiavellian (adj): Acting in a Machiavellian manner, while being so cack-handed about it that everybody sees through your deception. The worse of both worlds – transparent dishonesty. Usually applied to politicians, as befits a neologism coined for that class. The etymology is brand spanking new, since it comes from the splendid Marina Hyde’s column in today’s Guardian, Rupert Murdoch may be a monster but David Cameron and co are far worse. She is, of course, referring to our “political elite” – an oxymoron if ever I heard one.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Rupert Murdoch may be a monster but David Cameron and co are far worse

Murdoch's contempt for politicians demonstrated at Leveson this week is perhaps the one thing we can all agree with him on
Marina Hyde
guardian.co.uk, Friday 27 April 2012 19.15 BST
Article history

Murdoch's contempt for politicians seems largely borne of the embarrassing ease with which he is able to persuade them to fawn over him.

I know we're all ending this week desperate to find common ground with Rupert Murdoch, so I hope to be of assistance. After all, arguably the most striking feature of the News Corp boss's testimony before the Leveson inquiry was his radioactive contempt for the politicians with which he has been so inconveniently saddled. As someone who has long treated a change in government as the shuffling of junior personnel, Murdoch appears to have concluded that you really can't get the staff any more. And as an electorate that has concluded that you really can't get the overlords any more, we might ironically sympathise.

The list of things for which you could blame Rupert is hardly under-aired at present, but only the most piously naive would think self-interested politicking was worthy of a place on it. Blaming Murdoch for attempting to influence policy in his commercial favour is like disagreeing with gravity. He should be expected to behave like a rapacious corporate monster because that is what he is.

Where people have a right to expect far more, however, is from those notionally elected to look after their interests. The trouble with the Christian right is that it tends to be neither, runs a popular diss, and you could say the same for our "political elite". They are as cackiavellian as they are bottom-flight.

Rupert Murdoch's grip on his media empire was dramatically challenged yesterday after his company was labelled a "toxic shadow state" which launched a dirty tricks campaign against MPs and now faces a salvo of phone-hacking claims in the United States.

On a tumultuous day for the media mogul, the lawyer who brought the first damages claims against the News of the World in Britain said he had uncovered new allegations of the use of "dark arts" by News Corp in America and was ready to file at least three phone-hacking lawsuits in the company's backyard.

The sense of a legal net tightening around Mr Murdoch and News Corp was heightened by the announcement that he and his son James will testify separately next week before the Leveson Inquiry into press standards during three days of what is likely to be uncomfortable scrutiny of alleged widespread criminality in their British tabloid newspapers.

In a separate development, the royal editor of The Sun became the latest journalist on the paper to be arrested on suspicion of making corrupt payments to public officials.

The arrest coincided with the publication of an incendiary book on the scandal which levelled new accusations that the NOTW set out on an extraordinary campaign of intimidation of MPs to try to blunt their investigations into its alleged law breaking.

Last night senior MPs called for News International (NI) to be investigated by the Commons for potential contempt of Parliament over the claims that members of the House of Commons Culture, Media and Sport Select Committee were targeted by attempts to dig dirt on their private lives. Dial M for Murdoch, written by the Labour MP Tom Watson and The Independent's Martin Hickman, also alleges that:

l Rebekah Brooks, the former chief executive of NI, was bugged in her own office shortly before she resigned last summer over the phone hacking of Milly Dowler, the murdered schoolgirl.

l On his release from prison, Glenn Mulcaire, the convicted NOTW hacker, allegedly was contracted to give security advice to a private security company, Quest, whose chairman is Lord Stevens, a former Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police.

l NI intermediaries approached Mr Watson with a "deal" to "give him" former NOTW editor and Downing Street press chief Andy Coulson but that Ms Brooks was "sacred".

NI, which runs Mr Murdoch's British newspapers, said it had no comment to make on the book.

At a packed Westminster press conference, Mr Watson, who is a member of the Culture, Media and Sport committee, said the claim that the NOTW set out in 2009 to undermine the MPs investigating it came from Neville Thurlbeck, the NOTW's former chief reporter.

In the book, Mr Thurlbeck, who has been arrested in connection with phone hacking, says: "An edict came down... and it was find out every single thing you can about every single member: who was gay, who had affairs, anything we can use." Mr Thurlbeck told The Independent last night that the order to target the MPs, which involved assigning two politicians each to a group of six reporters, had not originated from inside the paper but instead came from "elsewhere inside News International". He insisted that NOTW staff had been reluctant and there was a "degree of procrastination" before the plan was "suddenly and unexpectedly halted about 10 days later".

Mr Watson, who has received an apology from NI after he was placed under surveillance, said he believed the campaign was nonetheless successful and had contributed to a decision by the media committee not to demand that Ms Brooks give evidence to it in 2010.

He added: "Parliament was, in effect, intimidated. News International thought they could do this, that they could get away with it, that no one could touch them; and they actually did it, and it worked."

Labelling News Corp a "toxic institution", he added: "We conclude that the web of influence which News Corporation spun in Britain, which effectively bent politicians, police and many others in public life to its will, amounted to a shadow state."

......Hours after publication of the book, Mark Lewis, the lawyer who has doggedly pursued hacking claims, told a press conference in New York that he was investigating allegations of impropriety at Mr Murdoch's US media companies, including Fox News. He said a high-profile trip to America to prepare claims on behalf of victims whose phones were allegedly hacked on US soil had generated a slew of new allegations about wider use of "dark arts" to obtain private information.

He said: "The investigation in the UK began with one claim by one client and look where it is now. While it starts in America with three cases, it seems likely it might end up with more."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/hacking-scandal-the-net-tightens-on-the-murdochs-7661722.html


But surely, conservatives don't lie......




Yeah right!!

Artful Dodger: If you want the last word just say so, but whether that word will be meaningful or just you playing a ribbing game....

Nope..... I especially loved losing when it helped tune my fruit machine sense.

Cos afters I never played a machine that I lost on

cherry picked from a nationwide collection by the UK government's office of national statistics....

Tell me how they are cherry picked Dan?

"Just ask Rod or Vikes"

Who are on the other side of the political fence as stated before.

Now I've made my point clearly......

... yet when asked about how Christian churches are using politicians to promote and enforce their views on Gay marriage and rights.

.. you won't reply.

Artful Dodger: Nope.. your just a sore loser when it comes to your idols.

Artful Dodger: The data they stated was rigged Dan.

Do you understand rigged? As in biased from the start, will confirm my belief even though it's wrong but I want to be right so I'll use studies and not present them clearly!!

You've been conned by your own side... get over it!!

From Dan's so called unbiased studies.

"........We recruited young people at these sites by asking workers to identify young people aged 13-15 who were at risk of teenage pregnancy, substance misuse, or exclusion from school (that is, as for the YPDP), although in practice field workers sometimes asked workers to identify “vulnerable” young people. We thus aimed to recruit young people in comparison sites who might have been referred to the YPDP had it been delivered in their area......."

Health outcomes of youth development programme in England: prospective matched comparison study
BMJ 2009; 339 doi: 10.1136/bmj.b2534 (Published 7 July 2009)
Cite this as: BMJ 2009;339:b2534


Abstract

Objective To evaluate the effectiveness of youth development in reducing teenage pregnancy, substance use, and other outcomes.

Design Prospective matched comparison study.

Setting 54 youth service sites in England.

Participants Young people (n=2724) aged 13-15 years at baseline deemed by professionals as at risk of teenage pregnancy, substance misuse, or school exclusion or to be vulnerable.

Intervention Intensive, multicomponent youth development programme including sex and drugs education (Young People’s Development Programme) versus standard youth provision.

Main outcome measures Various, including pregnancy, weekly cannabis use, and monthly drunkenness at 18 months.

Results Young women in the intervention group more commonly reported pregnancy than did those in the comparison group (16% v 6%; adjusted odds ratio 3.55, 95% confidence interval 1.32 to 9.50). Young women in the intervention group also more commonly reported early heterosexual experience (58% v 33%; adjusted odds ratio 2.53, 1.09 to 5.92) and expectation of teenage parenthood (34% v 24%; 1.61, 1.07 to 2.43).

Conclusions No evidence was found that the intervention was effective in delaying heterosexual experience or reducing pregnancies, drunkenness, or cannabis use. Some results suggested an adverse effect. Although methodological limitations may at least partly explain these findings, any further implementation of such interventions in the UK should be only within randomised trials.

Artful Dodger:


....... Dan...

http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/u/under-18%20and%20under-16%20conceptions%202010%20-%20key%20findings.pdf

Look over the figures as a whole yourself, I did post the link for the stats and their source.

Here's your source..

http://old.usccb.org/prolife/issues/contraception/contraception-fact-sheet-3-17-11.pdf

and that data..

M. Wiggins et al., “Health Outcomes of Youth Development Programme in England: Prospective Matched Comparison Study,” British Medical Journal 339.72 (2009): b2534; advance online publication (7 July 2009): 1-8 at l; www.bmj.com/cgi/reprint/339/jul07_2/b2534

.......>>>>>>> As stated in the pdf from the Catholic confederation by the secretariat of pro life activities.

A HARDLY UNBIASED GROUP

the collection of a whole countries statistics v a study in 54 sites
... which sites, where Dan?

you can't see the difference between some cherry picked data and that of a country as a whole.

Like Murdoch this week. Can't remember anything about phone hacking.. but he can remember everything about how the UK politicians tried to be where the sun doesn't shine regarding his self.

Artful Dodger: Studies... studies.. studies.

Ok. Then explain why the official figures, ie those one collected on how many teen pregnancies for the whole of the UK, as well as by country within the UK (ie England, Scotland, Wales and NI) show a drop?

Do your guys allow for the way diet has changed the age at which UK girls change to young women? The way the end of rationing would have caused a dramatic increase in girls of a younger age getting their hormones change?

"Then why do you do that all the time? That's exactly what you are known for!!!"

By those on the other side of the political spectrum. Hardly a bias free zone.

Table 2: Under 16 Conceptions for England: 1998-2010

1998 7,855
1999 7,408
2000 7,620
2001 7,407
2002 7,395
2003 7,558
2004 7,181
2005 7,473
2006 7,330
2007 7,718
2008 7,123
2009 6,756
2010 6,256
Sources: Office for National Statistics, 2012
*per thousand females aged 13-15

Education Secretary Michael Gove is to examine claims the Catholic Education Service (CES) broke impartiality rules on the topic of gay marriage.

It emerged this week that the CES wrote to nearly 400 state-funded Roman Catholic schools inviting them to back a petition against gay civil marriage.

Schools and teachers are forbidden to promote one-sided political arguments. The CES has denied breaking any laws, saying Catholic views on marriage are religious, not political.

On Thursday, the Welsh government said it was to investigate similar complaints against the CES.

"Schools have a responsibility under law to ensure children are insulated from political activity and campaigning in the classroom," said a Department for Education spokesperson.

"While faith schools, rightly, have the freedom to teach about sexual relations and marriage in the context of their own religion, that should not extend to political campaigning.

"Officials are looking into this as ministers are anxious to establish the full facts of this case and will be meeting representatives of the CES shortly."

Earlier this week, Pinknews.co.uk reported that students at St Philomena's Catholic High School for Girls in Carshalton were "encouraged" to sign the anti-equality pledge by the school's headmistress.

"In our assembly for the whole sixth form you could feel people bristling as she explained parts of the letter and encouraged us to sign the petition," a pupil was quoted as saying.

"She said things about gay marriage and civil partnerships being unnatural. It was just a really outdated, misjudged and heavily biased presentation."

.. I've also studied when someone is pettifogging or trying to just argue for the sake of it.

Dan.. here for you.. spin free, is some stats that everyone in the UK already knows. Why, because we live here.

Under-18 conceptions
England and Wales
 Figures for England and Wales show that the 2010 under-18 conception rate
(35.5 conceptions per 1,000) is the lowest estimated rate since 1969. The
7.3% decline in the under-18 conception rate 2009 to 2010 represents the
greatest single year decrease in the under-18 conception rate since 1975/76.
 Data for England and Wales show that conception numbers and rates fell at
all ages under-18 (see Table 3 in Annex 1). Younger age groups (especially
those under 15) continue to account for a very small proportion of teenage
conceptions. In 2010 5% of under-18 conceptions in England and Wales
were to under 15s.
England
 In 2010, the under-18 conception rate for England was 35.4 conceptions per
1,000 girls aged 15-17. This represents a decline of 7.3% since 2009 (38.2
conceptions per 1,000) and continues the overall downward trend observed
since 1998. The under-18 conception rate has fallen by 24% since 1998,
down from 46.6 conceptions per 1,000 (see Table 1 in Annex 1).
 The total number of under-18 conceptions in England has declined by 10.5%
since 2009, down from 35,966 to 32,552.
 The proportion of conceptions leading to abortions for under-18s was 50.3%,
up slightly from 2009 (49.1%).
 Both maternity and abortion rates for under-18s are declining. However, the
rate of under-18 conceptions leading to births continues to fall at a faster rate
than overall conceptions. In 2010, the rate of under-18 conceptions leading to
births was 17.6 per 1,000. This is 10% lower than in 2009 (19.5 per 1,000)
and 35% lower than in 1998 (26.9 per 1,000) (see Figure 1 in Annex 1)

http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/u/under-18%20and%20under-16%20conceptions%202010%20-%20key%20findings.pdf

Now... If you can find more reliable stats within your spin doctors catalogue of manipulation... Go ahead... Please try

.. I have more if you want.. but the data will so close your argument you couldna take it

.. your head might explode!!