Bernice: I'll never be able to go to an Asian doctor again!

Pedro Martínez: Please don't post anymore links like that. I peed my pants!

(V): In both parties. I'm sick of the Republicans as much as the Democrats.

Bernice:There are many factors that can contribute to the kind of violence the school in the documentary experienced.  And unfortunately, for many parents it's also a situation where they are trapped in the school system.  For many, it's either go to that school or it's no school at all.  Not a good choice. 

I have faith in good administrators and good teachers to meet this challenge.  I have no faith in any government to fix the problem.  The government is far too often incompetent in these kinds of things.  Case in point is the No Child Left Behind legislation that Bush signed.  The failure of this legislation serves to illustrate just how stupid political can be.  Often the solutions they find are nothing more than attempts to score political points at the expense of innocent people. 

Violence in UK schools

I'm just guessing here but I would say that these stories parallel stories that one might find in the US.  It's a sad reality of our social structure.  I think it's safe to say this sort of thing is driven by poverty.  The articles in the above link point to the home as a major contributing factor to many of  the problems schools face.  I know this is true.  But a culture of poverty brings with it an entirely different set of values and hierarchical needs.  It's easy to blame the parents but that doesn't even begin to address the problem.

Violence in US Schools

I found more informations just now.  Some on that documentary Bernice mentioned.  The school in that docu is considered one of the most dangerous schools in America. 

 

Bernice:I couldn't find anything on that school but I can tell you that it isn't representative of US schools.  But is is likey representative of a culture of violence that finds its way into some US schools.   I suspect that there are problems like this in the UK as well.  It's a cultural problem, not a school problem.  The kids don't come from sweet loving middle class homes and then all of a sudden, when they step into the school building, they become animals.  They were animals first and they brought their culture of hate and violence with them when they went through the school doors.

True innocent and well behaved students are caught in the crossfire.  It's not all students but it does effect them all.  Solutions aren't easy but there are solutions.  To ignore the problem, which some administrations do, is to become a part of the problem. 

Bwild:Yeah they did let people know.  Under the circumstances, they should have notified the TV stations too.   cover all the bases IMO

Czuch: I would say yes but depending on the circumstances. I've seen videos where officers took a man down by the neck in a choke hold. The man was just sitting on his motorcycle and had just lost control of the bike and was stopped, sitting on his bike that he was holding up, trying to keep from falling. The officer lunged at the man, grabbing him around the neck, and slammed him to the ground.

Of course the biker dude had just led the officer on a high speed chase and only stopped because he had lost control of the bike.

In this case, the officer acted properly. But if someone had just seen the video, and didn't know the full circumstances, they might say the officer over reacted. The guy was warned first to get off his bike but he sat there like a dork.

In the case Jules is talking about, it's hard to tell. The man is moving away, but he appears to be taunting the police (asking for trouble) in a very stressful situation. And he's moving sideways, and clearly very slowly (defiantly).

Maybe the officer over reacted but as I've said, the man should have promptly complied with the cop's demands. He looked to be playing them and seemed to be asking for a confrontation with the police. He got more than he barganed for.....

(V): ""Now we know that he was violently assaulted by a police officer and died from internal bleeding. As time goes on we hope that the full truth about how Ian died will be made known.""


The choice of the words "violently assaulted" seems a bit much to me. The man was shoved to the ground. And assault perhaps but no a violent one. Seems to me that if the shove caused the man's death, it was a freak accident more than anything else. Which is likely why they are talking about manslaughter and not murder.

Snoopy: Oh I know that. But even if the officer was found innocent of the man's death, don't you think that the shove was a bit excessive?

Snoopy: Well, shoving the guy was unnecessary no matter the outcome. So that's one point. Police here are trained to show more restraint. Certainly the officer didn't mean to bring upon the man's death. But shoving the man served no useful purpose. With that I agree.

I also see Czuch's point. I know that whenever I've been pulled over, the man in the uniform represents the authority of the state. He is called, "sir' by me. Or "officer." I show respect and talk decent to the man/woman. I know they have a hard job to do. If I am near the G20 summit, I choose a route that doesn't complicate the job of the police. They have been dealing with rioters etc. So being smart, I know to keep away from the front lines. This man apparently didn't get that message. He bears some responsibility here. It doesn't excuse away the officer's over-reaction (IMO it was an over reaction), but it does put some blame upon the man that died.

(V): I feel the same way as an educator. I work for the people.

(V): Well I can agree with that.

(V): Admittedly I don't know much about the case nor am I familiar with the law. Your descriptions rather remind me of the SS and some of their early antics of abuse. Given too much power, people can abuse others. So if this is the case, the officer should be prosecuted.

Czuch does make a good point on the personal responsibility front. If I were to walk into a biker bar, and call all the bikers a bunch of nanny fags, and they beat me to a pulp and then beat me some more, who would be at fault for my injuries? The bikers broke the law, but would I have no guilt in my own injuries? After all, had I simply stayed home or just gone to walmart, I'd be ok. Or say I walk into a biker bar and hand each biker a 100 dollar bill and tell them to have a good day, they might buy me a beer. Or they might beat me to a pulp and see if I had anymore money. Either way, whether I call them fags and get beat, or give them 100 dollars and get beat, I'm still beat up. Maybe dead. And to think I'd be just fine had I simply gone to the zoo instead.

(V): What I want to know is this: Did that guy die simply from being pushed down or was there more that happened that we didn't see?

Czuch:I've seen that sort of shuffle in my students when they are acting defiant.  It's like saying, "I'll get there when I get there." 

The cop said, "Here, let me help you move a bit faster." 

(V):
What actions? Having his hands in his pockets and walking off home?


Yes, he was not complying with the officer.  He was being a jerk about it.  It was a tense situation and  he was playing a game.  So he's not entirely innocent.  But the officer still over reacted. 

(V):  Id say the guy was provoking the police by his actions.  And in a tense situation like G20, that was a stupid thing to do.  But police are supposed to show restraint.  Shoving a man to the ground was way out of line IMO.  Arrest him yes, but physically assault him?  The police officer lost his cool.   If in fact that action caused the man's death, then by definition of the law, that could be manslaughter. 

OTOH, why couldn't the police officer simply have ignore the man.  He was not a threat.  He was just moving slowly.   Eventually, even a turtle makes it across the street. 

It looks to me like the guy just got shoved to the ground.  Perhaps a bit too agressively but that caused the death?

Bernice: The crew was already safe. Only the captain was taken hostage.

(V):Yeah.  I've been trying to find some history on it but haven't found a great source yet. 

(V):That all works for me!  One thing for sure, if I were a US ship, I'd be sure to have an armed unit with me even if I had to hired them out!  And I'd take every precaution that is recommended by those that know.  That area of the world is not a cake walk. 

(V):Yep, it's gotta be a show of force.  And a few traps would be nice.  Run those waters later at night and why not fully arm part of the crew? 

Well, the captain is free, and the Navy Seals with sniper guns shot and killed 3 of the pirates.  The Captain escaped unharmed.  The 4th pirate is in US custody.  According to a report:  "Acting on a standing order from President Obama to move in when Phillips was in "imminent danger" snipers were ordered to fire."   Way to go Obama.  That will certainly be to his credit.  The pirates had an AK47 to the back of the head of the Captain.  That and previous shots fired were enough and the Seals took their shots.

Here's a follow up story  Not a surprise.  The Pirates vow to avenge the death of their co-pirates.  hmmmm, how dare the US fight back against terrorists who threaten innocent people.  Now those terrorists are mad and will retaliate. 

So what.  Now is the time to bring it to those cowards.  A far more noble task than Iraq.  Many nations are suffering at the hands of these pirates.  I hope the international community takes this opportunity to band together for the good of humanity and defeat these pirates.  No more $$ should be given to these crooks.  That only guarentees more of the same. 

Make no mistake, the pirates will want revenge.  Stay away, and keep the gun loaded.  Head snots only.  No warning shots to approaching vessels.  Sink em.  BAM!  If every time they sink an approaching vessel, or shoot the pirates as they try to board, how long before they try their luck somewhere else?

Here's the deal.  It's not smart to threaten a moderator with stupid threats.  I'm so NOT concerned.  So give it a rest.



If you want to be taken off hide, just delete your offending post and
simply don't misbehave again.   If you don't remove the post, you don't
come off hide.



It's up to you.

(V):Oh yeah.   That was with that wimpy ineffective moron Jimmy Carter.  He was one of the worst presidents in US history.  Iran knew that Reagan wouldn't put up with anymore of their nonsense and they released them.  You have to take a hard stand against terrorists.  No soft approach will do.  No "understanding their motives."  Take it to them.   And use lots of ammo and head aims.  Dead terrorists can't whine about international law or rights or whatever. 

(V):One of them what?

Pedro Martínez:Well, if they surrendered, I'd have no choice but to take them prisoner.  But while they are still armed and aggressive, I'd take a shoot to kill approach.  If they survive, then they are captured.  But my goal would be to make them dead first, captured second. 

(V):When and where and what was done?

Pedro Martínez:But don't you think they could do more?  Like have a commando group on a few ships and set the pirates up?  With a take no prisoners approach.  A dead pirate can't reoffend.

Pedro Martínez:
  Well, to my knowledge this is the first time a US hostage has been taken.  But you're right that these pirates have been at this sort of crap a long time.

There are 39 times where the word "idiot" has been used appropriately on this board. 

Vikings:Of course, a hand grenade would do wonders.  How about throwing a few hand grenades in the little boat, then when the bad guys all jump out, slit their little throats.  They'd leave the captain on board because they'd think he was gonna blow up.  But the hand grenades are duds.  lol. 

Vikings:I know I wouldn't put up with it.  It's all nonsense.  A group of Navy Seals on a night raid, they tip the boat over, take the pirates about 15 feet under, figure out which one is the Captain of the US ship, take him to the surface, let the pirates suck water.  No mercy.  No innocent until proven guilty.  Just one rescued captain and 4 dead pirates. 

Good evening. As you know, early yesterday, Somali-based pirates attacked the Maersk Alabama, a freighter carrying relief supplies to Kenya.............I will not stop until this man-made disaster is resolved in a peaceful, tolerant and ecologically-sound manner.....................There have been calls for justice and even violence against the misguided perpetrators. But such an emotional reaction has led to the disparagement of entire groups...................For too long, America has been too dismissive of the proud culture and invaluable contributions of the Pirate Community. Whether it is their pioneering work with prosthetics,..................................To address this issue, I have instructed Vice President Joe Biden to create a cabinet-level Czar of Pirate Outreach and Buccaneer Interrelation...............

Read the entire speech here.

This is a great satirical piece that fully exposes the stupidity of Obama's "rose colored glasses" approach to world issues.  Get real.  The US is NOT part of a globally run community.  We are an independent nation and run our own lives.  Blow the pirates out of the water.  Then chase the rest down and shoot to kill. 

Further, I'd put a US commando group on some of these US freighters and if the Pirates attack, I'd like them board, then shoot them dead.  All of them.  Then I'd make sure that the pirate world knows that if you mess with a US ship, you just might get your head blown off. 

Cowboy diplomacy all the way on this one.  

While an 800 million dollar US Naval ship floats helplessly, held at bay by 4 armed men in a little row boat, the French boarded a sailboat and freed the French hostages.  One hostage was killed and so was one terrorist.  The other three terrorists were captured.

The US on the other hand are doing NOTHING!   Stupid.  Get some commandos, snipers, surround the little row boat, and if they threaten to kill the captain, shoot the bastards between the eyes.   Then go after all the other pirates with a shoot first, ask questions later.  Be proactive.  Don't simply react to the attacks.  Find the pirates, blow the hell out of them.  Apologize later.  Use the big guns on the big ship, blow their little ships to nothing.  No bodies, no debris.  Just a big splash and some red.  After a while, the pirates will realize that it's not in their best interest to mess with the US.

But once again the US acts like a wimp. 

Bush would NEVER have tolerated this crap!

Czuch:He had to make that visit.  But clearly he's not acting entirely in the best interest of the US.  He's acting in the best interest of the new image he want's for the US.  And that image isn't a good one.  He want's to appease the enemy.  I'd eliminate them.  At least keep them on their toes. 

Bernice:It's horrible.   Some day many nations will have terrible weapons that will make the current weapons seem tame.  I worry for my grandkids.  What kind of world will they inherit? 

Bernice:Yeah, but that will never happen.

Snoopy:"New guidelines suggest that women should have their first Pap smear by the age of 21 or within 3 years of first sexual intercourse. Women need to continue to have yearly gyn exams to look for any abnormalities or STDs, as well."

http://cancer.about.com/od/thepapsmear/f/beginpapsmear.htm

I'm just guessing here but I'm assuming that in a socialist system of medical care, a person is restricted for the procedure until a certain age?  According to the above, for may "women" the age would be 16. 

This doesn't have much to do with politics unless we're discussing the implications of socialized medicine.  Is that the reason for the 25 year old age limit? 

Family Doctor . org ;)

 Checking a variety of sites, I get different info on when to start and how often.  Basically, proper medical coverage would agree with the medical experts.  Most agree a pap smear should be done within the first few years of becoming sexually active and by age 18-21 even if one is not sexually active.  If a socialized medical system doesn't allow for these parameters, then they are simply playing with the lives of women patients.

GoodTimeCharlie: This is so obvious and yet they still defend it.  I hate the dishonesty of it all.

Here's a great example of the dishonesty we the people have to put up with in politics.  The Democratic National Convention sent 200 volunteers to Capital Hill delivering what they say were 642,000 "individual pledges."  

Obama has an email list of 13-million.  That's a huge number.  And from that 13 million, Obama got a whopping 114,000 individual pledges supporting his budget ideas.  That is disgraceful.  So the DNC went out and hit the streets and got 100,000 more pledges.  My math says that's 214,000 individual pledges.  

But wait.  The DNC claim they sent 642,000 individual pledges to Capital Hill.  Where did the other pledges come from?

Well, it seems the DNC made three copies of each petition so that each signer's senators and representatives could get one.  3 x 214,000 is 642,000.  

I get it.  Just take the paltry number of pledges, make photo copies, come up with a new number, and make it official.  And what was the DNC's response to this dishonesty?

"DNC spokesperson Natalie Wyeth responded: "This effort was designed to give our supporters the tools to influence their elected officials. Of course we delivered a pledge to each of their members of Congress - 642,000 pledges. That's what we said we were delivering and that's what we did.""

(V):  I'm referring more specifically to coverage like the war or a protest march.  If a news organization is going to report on improprieties of the  military, then they ought also to report on the good that is being done.  Many decent men are serving the call of their country and doing good humanitarian work as well as combat.  When something negative occurs, it should be placed in the larger context of the whole and not isolated.  So in the case of the protesters, it's important to report the law breaking incidents but to also cover those that followed the law and kept their part of the protest peaceful. 

(V):Maybe hyped up isn't correct but they sure do focus on the negative - unless it's their man in the White House.  When a news reporter says Obama gives him a tingle in his leg, you can be sure he'll have a problem with objectivity.

Bernice:leave it to czuch to set me straight 

Czuch:good point.  I was going to suggest that if Jules lives in a cocoon then he'll be emerging as a butterfly soon. 

GoodTimeCharlie:I agree.  Ive seen that very thing in the states.  Some would even travel to a "local" protest. 

I feel the need to remind the group to remember to address only the issues, not the person.  Some addressing of a person can be harmless, but just remember not to carry such things too far.  It's easy to offend in forums like these.   I know I've done my share of that.  ;) 

Pedro Martínez: