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2. Aprile 2009, 21:11:23
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Thoughts on this?

1. Aprile 2009, 01:58:32
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: a lil over the top
Vikings: I like that idea.  Voting for the leadership is one thing but voting for just any civil servant would be too much. 

1. Aprile 2009, 00:33:13
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: a lil over the top

Bernice:   Yes, that's what I meant.  I think term limits would be a good thing.   I think we'd stand to gain more than we'd lose.  Sure we'd lose the more experienced ones but those are the ones that seem to do whatever they like regardless of public opinion.   And new blood is always good.


As for civil servants, I suspect V was playing on the word "servant" as often service is not what we get from the govt but red tape etc.  Many civil servants are simply government loopholes one must jump through.  But I agree with you that voting for them would be crazy.  ;)


31. Marzo 2009, 21:31:42
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: a lil over the top
(V):   Do your elected officials have term limits?

30. Marzo 2009, 05:31:43
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:

(V):   Do you mean an investigation of the events leading up to the war in Iraq?  If a trustworthy investigation could be conducted, I wouldn't oppose that.  But what can be accomplished by it?


I'd rather see a complete revamping of the US's foreign policy with respect to military presence in other countries.  We have plenty of probems on our own soil and ought to be attending to those first.  I don't know what a good Foreign policy would look like but I think we can do much better. 


29. Marzo 2009, 04:36:02
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
ScarletRose:

29. Marzo 2009, 00:15:40
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
Bernice:  It's one thing to make a claim with evidence, it's another thing to make a claim with no evidence and tell others to wake up and smell the coffee.  Something smells alright and it isn't the coffee. 

28. Marzo 2009, 16:39:57
Papa Zoom 
If you put in 9/11 conspiracy crap into google, you get a bunch of hits.  I'll bet they all heard the story about Alex's quote! 

More evidence!

28. Marzo 2009, 16:32:43
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
GoodTimeCharlie:
  I still can't verify that quote made by Alex Jones but I can't stand him so I stand by the accuracy of the quote. 

28. Marzo 2009, 16:01:58
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: And this just in
Vikings:It was but on that day they switched jobs so I'm sure the story is correct. 

28. Marzo 2009, 15:50:05
Papa Zoom 
I stand by the accuracy of that quote.

28. Marzo 2009, 15:48:39
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: And this just in
Alex Jones is quoted as saying: "I don't really believe in that 9/11 conspiracy crap.  It's all hype by a bunch of know nothing morons.  But there is no money in following the truth but plenty of money can be made by jumping on the conspiracy band wagon.  Some people will believe a lie before they will believe the truth."

The anonymous source for this information claims to be quoting another anonymous source who overheard his mother telling a friend she overhead the owner of a restaurant telling the cook that the waitress overhead the busboy telling the dishwasher that another waitress overhead Alex Jones tell say all this to a female companion while visiting the restaurant for breakfast.  The anonomous waitress, the one who overheard Alex's confession, quickly wrote down on a napkin what she heard and the owner found the napkin and asked the anonmous waitress about it.  The owner of the restaurant, who will remain anomous, is well known for his pancakes and honesty.  To this day, Alex Jones hasn't denied the quote. 



28. Marzo 2009, 15:36:17
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: My time is limited and I have a lot to do, so I will post here only rarely,



28. Marzo 2009, 06:58:33
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: I am reading this book because I seek further enlightenment....
Bernice:WEll, I'm going back to just moderating the board for a while.  I'm not going to go to all the trouble of checking out a story, discovering the source is an anonymous one, and that anyone can post at the originating site, only to be told the story with no evidence is accurate.  Way past reasonable. 

28. Marzo 2009, 06:33:44
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:You mean you stand by the questionable accuracy of a report based on your preconceived notions.  And, in spite of the fact that there is NO EVIDENCE, you accept the story as true.   There's goes your credibility with me. 

28. Marzo 2009, 05:38:40
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
Czuch:

28. Marzo 2009, 05:31:58
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:The point is, you were totally wrong about attributing that quote to Bush.  Take your medicine and stop the dance around. 

28. Marzo 2009, 04:56:47
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
GoodTimeCharlie:"cram it down my throat"

exactly.  I do have a brain and can think for myself.  I'm not easily fooled and when someone tells me what to think, that is a red flag in my book!

28. Marzo 2009, 04:55:24
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:Ok, let's assume he didn't say it, for the sake of argument.

We have to assume he didn't say it, there's no evidence he did. 

The question then is, does Bush in fact despise the Constitution?

Well, you'd have to make a conclusion based upon some evidence and you'd have to make a subjective judgment.

Did his actions while in office provide overwhelming evidence of that?

No.  You will say yes but overwhelming?  Prove it to me. 

Did he undermine the Constitution, oversee the gutting of its Bill of Rights, and otherwise act as if he were not bound by it, in true dictatorial style?

Again, you are assuming the very thing you are trying to prove.  Question begging. 

So whether he said these words in actuality is not very relevant.

You are absolutely 100% wrong here.  It fully matters.  The very issue under question right now is the quote! 

I think he probably did, but then I wasn't there.

Who cares what you think?  That's certainly not proof of anything!  I think he probably didn't!  There.  Now I've balanced out your opinion so we're back to zero. 

What he DID, however, is very relevant.

What he DID is an entirely different question.  I'm ONLY responding to the quote you claim is his.  You have NO PROOF.  No proof but yet you still believe an anonymous source.  You just went down a few notches on my respect meter.    Now I know that you'll believe something is true even if there is no evidence for it.

I expect now you'll want a list of things he did to undermine the Constitution, with links to supporting evidence, etc.

Of course.  And since you're the one making the claim, it's on you.

But really, so much information is out there, the evidence is so complete, that if you don't recognize it already, nothing I could post could change your mind.

Well, all I have to do is go to some left wing loon's website and I can find all the "evidence" I need.  Of course, I'll just stick to the right wing nut's websites.  Think I'll find anything there?



28. Marzo 2009, 04:31:50
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
Czuch:  Exactly.  It's like saying, "The only facts I have are in this fake document." 

28. Marzo 2009, 04:27:27
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:   The original article with the quote you cite appeared in the DC Indymedia.   It was submitted by "anonymous."   That's a great source now isn't it?  BTW, anyone can post an article on the site.  Since that is the case, there is no way to check the source.  Where did this anonymous get this info?  The author claims that he talked to three sources that overheard the comment.  Sure.  Who were they?  We can never know.  Doug Thompson just reported it, he's not a witness to what, if anything, was said.

And what about Doug Thompson?  It's his site that carried this questionable quote.  Here are some titles to a few of his other articles:  # Bush's betrayal   # Burn in hell, Mr. President   Americans no longer buy Bush's lies

--many more of the same kind can be found there

Many other sites carried the piece you posted and but this comment sums up the original source nicely: 

12/17/2005 - 14:11:37PM  
BY: Ray
Capitol Hill Blue seems to have a recurring problem with anonymous sources.

I mean, conned for 20 years by the same guy? Doug Thompson should have retired in shame. Obviously he is a gullible mark, and if he doesn't name his "sources" I won't believe a word he says.


Thompson originally retracted the article but then decided to repost it.  He retracted it because it lacked a verifiable source.  One has to wonder why he then decided to repost it and claim that he now "stands by the story."  Maybe his obvious hate for Bush had something to do with that decision.

On one website, this message preceeded the article: 

"Warning: The Content in this Article May be Inaccurate


Readers have reported that this story contains information that may not be accurate."

  no kidding.  Mr Anonomous is a hard man to track down.  Getting a statement from him seems impossible.

In the end Greg, you'll have to find a more credible story because this one fails the test of truth.  And if you insist that it's true, that will reflect heavily upon you in my view.  Are you going to be one of those that embraces a story simply because you want it to be true (because it fits into your worldview scenario)? 

If this story is untrue (and it most likely is a fabrication) then you have fallen for the very thing for which you warn others.  Time to rethink this one. 

27. Marzo 2009, 23:40:28
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:And can you show me a report where Bush is interviewed where he was asked about the incident where he didn't deny it.?? ;)

27. Marzo 2009, 23:39:23
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Please give a solution to avoid the trap and global enslavement
The Usurper:  I agree with GoodTimeCharlie on the name change.  Just because you can google it and get a thousand hits doesn't make it true.  And just because it appears on the nightly news doesn't make it false. 

Put stones in people's shoes and let them decide for themselves.  You are convinced that your worldview is true.  And it may be.  But it's also possible that you have been fooled.  I view most things with at least a slice of skepticism.  I want to remain open to the possibility that my view is wrong.  None of us are infallible. 

27. Marzo 2009, 23:34:12
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
The Usurper:"The only facts I have is the report itself."

Then the question becomes, how reliable is this report?  Who wrote it?  What is this person's history?  Does he/she have an axe to grind against Bush or the Republicans?  Who are the sources? 

You write about his incident as if it were true.  And when asked for proof, assume to be true the very thing you are trying to prove!  That is question begging pure and simple.

No.  It's not enough evidence for such a serious charge.  And to build a case with such questionable evidence puts everything else you say in a questionable light.

I am very disappointed in Bush.  I think he failed in many ways as President.  But if he is to be criticized, it can't be because I may dislike him or distrust him.  My criticism must be true or based on truth.  Not a "gut" feeling which could be attributed to bad pepperoni.  Honest, hard, verifiable facts.  Nothing less than that will do.  Hearsay is not evidence.  It's more often closer to a lie than it is the truth.



27. Marzo 2009, 17:08:06
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Please give a solution to avoid the trap and global enslavement
GoodTimeCharlie:  There does seem to be a lot of propaganda being thrown around lol

27. Marzo 2009, 17:04:17
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back.
Modificato da Papa Zoom (27. Marzo 2009, 17:07:12)

The Usurper:   Breaking part of my own rule and arguing via a quote: 



Did President Bush call the Constitution a "goddamned piece of paper?"
Is it true that President Bush called the Constitution a "goddamned piece of paper?" He has never denied it, and it appears that there were several witnesses.
A: Extremely unlikely. The Web site that reported those words has a history of quoting phony sources and retracting bogus stories.
The report that Bush "screamed" those words at Republican congressional leaders in November 2005 is unsubstantiated, to put it charitably.



We judge that the odds that the report is accurate hover near zero. It comes from Capitol Hill Blue, a Web site that has a history of relying on phony sources, retracting stories and apologizing to its readers.



---------------------



My guess is that Bush never said this.  It's running around the internet as if it were true.  It's an unsubstantiated story and if not true, it's not only irresponsible to pass it on as truth, it questions your credibility in other areas.  Unless you have "proof" and not just some hateful website making this claim, then you have nothing.  You say Bush can't be defended here.  That's a nice American ideal.  Guilty  because you say so.  Bush can in fact be defended if if guilty because that's how our system works.   But in fact there is no real evidence he's said this nonsense and you've posted it more than once.  I've seen nothing to indicate that this is true.  Got any hard facts?
 


Oh, and there's more here


27. Marzo 2009, 05:38:35
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
The Usurper:I can't build a deck on the back of my house without a government permit.  Even though the current deck exists but is rotting out.  I can replace boards one at a time and over time could rebuild it that way.  That's legal.  But I can't build it all at once unless I give them 200 dollars to say it's ok.  Then they will come out and look at it and say, "looks good."  (I built it anyway without their blessing)

A man is building his dream home in a newly developing area.  As the area grows, sidewalks will be put in by the contractors (a State law).  but the single home owner is being forced to build a sidewalk (under the same regulation) even though a) he'll never be able to use it and b) an new one will be build (and the old one will have to be torn up.

Cost?  15 thousand dollars to the home owner.  Stupid incompetent public servants.  (oxymorons all)

26. Marzo 2009, 19:34:50
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: The US economic policy is the road to hell."
(V):   Everybody has an agenda.  Even you. 

26. Marzo 2009, 05:41:04
Papa Zoom 
I don't know much about the politics of Britain nor do I fully understand their economic problems, but this speech by Daniel Hannan, MEP for South East England, sure sounds like it could be given in the US Congress.  Hannan addresses Gordon Brown, the Prime Minister druing his visit to the European Parlament.  Check it out.

Wouldn't it be great if someone in the US Congress had the smarts to deliver a speech like this to the over-spending of our US President?!    

26. Marzo 2009, 02:33:42
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
Pedro Martínez: He's absolutely right too!

26. Marzo 2009, 02:24:53
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: an O'Reilly guest once said a certain thing was "retarded."
Czuch: V and I were talking about something different. Dick Morris dropped the "retarded" word.

26. Marzo 2009, 02:24:04
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Fox News produces it, they own it.I don't care what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
Jim Dandy: Yes, it was on the Fox News Channel. But not an argument over semantics. Over accuracy.

26. Marzo 2009, 01:14:40
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Fox News produces it, they own it.I don't care what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
Jim Dandy: No it happened on Red Eye. So once again you get it wrong.

25. Marzo 2009, 23:42:52
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: an O'Reilly guest once said a certain thing was "retarded."
(V): I should have said he just used the word instead. Point is still there. It was on Fox and people came unglued. PC is at the point now where it's way past being silly.

25. Marzo 2009, 22:14:03
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Bam had a laugh at the expense of handicapped people
Czuch: Don't try to understand any of it. It will give you a migrane.

25. Marzo 2009, 22:12:41
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: BTW, I must have missed all the angry posts from you all when Bam had a laugh at the expense of handicapped people?????? Disabled must not be on your list I guess...
Czuch: It wasn't said on Fox so it's ok. By the way, an O'Reilly guest once said a certain thing was "retarded." Well, you know what hit the fan on that one?

25. Marzo 2009, 21:09:33
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Fox News produces it, they own it.I don't care what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
(V): Not really. I clearly know more about this than you would. But it doesn't matter to me. Think whatever you like.

25. Marzo 2009, 21:01:49
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Fox News produces it, they own it.I don't care what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
(V): It's obvious you don't know what you are talking about here.

25. Marzo 2009, 20:52:00
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: My favorite link
Modificato da Papa Zoom (25. Marzo 2009, 20:53:05)
CRTC approves Fox News for CanadaNov 18, 2004 ... Fox News will be coming to Canadian digital television after CRTC approves application by cable association.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2004/11/18/fox_crtc041118.html

I'll bet some Canadian are fans of the show. Even still.

25. Marzo 2009, 20:51:16
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Fox News produces it, they own it.I don't care what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
(V): Not the same Jules and you know it. Or are you suggesting that if The Simpson's cartoon show has a controversial topic on it can be blamed on Fox News? It's not Fox News, it's The Fox News Channel or simply Fox. When someone says "Fox News" they lump it all together. Hogwash. Rubbish. Nonsense. Be specific. Here are some dishonest headlines:

Fox News jokesters forced into retreat over Canadian military
Fox News apologizes to Canada for troop remarks
tons of these examples

And more honest:
FOX News (RED EYE) Insults Canada - Blogger News Network
Red Eye vs. Canada, Eh? Gutfeld Apologizes - mediabistro.com: TVNewser
Red Eye w/ Greg Gutfeld-Invade Canada? - AOL Video
Red Eye Host Forced to Apologize to Canada / Jossip
Fox News Show Red Eye Mocks Canada - iReport.com

One reports dishonestly and the other honestly and accuractly.

25. Marzo 2009, 20:20:20
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Fox News produces it, they own it.I don't care what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
Jim Dandy: Well, I find it odd that you emphasized the fact that it happened on "Fox News." That line was dishonest. It didn't happen on Fox News. Some headlines got it right and were accurate about the entire story. They didn't have to resort to half-truths to make their point. You intentionally distorted the truth.

25. Marzo 2009, 19:48:46
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: But a group of comedians on a late night show that mocks the news?what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
(V): Not just here but on the net people have gone on and on and on about it. Phony outrage designed to score points. That sort of nonsense happens in politics all the time. Both sides of the political spectrum (and all points inbetween) practice this dishonesty. I think the left is the worst at it but the right is not immune to such displays of exploitation and dishonestly either. Some reported the story in a legitimate and honest way. But most exploited it. When the level of outrage is greater than the level of the offense, something else is at play.

25. Marzo 2009, 19:37:06
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: But a group of comedians on a late night show that mocks the news?what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
(V): They make fun of the news. In this case the news was about the Canadian military. Some here in the US can also get canned (and have) for over the top remarks. But it's rare. We do have a thing called freedom of speech here in the US. It does have its limits, but in this case, the use of their freedom of speech came back and bit them in the butt. I think the backlash was sufficient to send them a strong message and likely they got it. So all this talking about it really surprises me. Nothing else will change by rehashing it over and over. And repeating your same points isn't necessary now is it?

25. Marzo 2009, 19:33:03
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: So would you..
(V): Yep.

25. Marzo 2009, 17:02:38
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Fox News produces it, they own it.I don't care what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
Jim Dandy: Jim Dandy: But it is exploitive I also see it as feigned indignation. Your outrage is out of proportion to the offense. Your hatred for Fox News is well known. So I see it as an excuse to take a shot at Fox. But it's dishonest. It's not about Fox. It's about a show that mocks the news and how in this case, they stepped over the line. There was a huge backlash over it. The host had to retract the statement. BTW, the Canadian authorities accepted the apology. So that makes it no longer an issue. People exploit these kinds of situations all the time. The video you posted exploits the situation. The outrage is way out of proportion to what was said by a group of comedians. The comedians suffered from the backlash. One had his upcoming comedy show cancelled. People threatened to boycott the advertisers.
The statements made on that show were insensitive and insulting. They were made worse by the fact that 4 Canadian solders had been killed just days before the airing of the show. You want to be mad over that? Then be mad in the right direction and at the right people. But don't exploit it for your own use. That's what I see you have done. Keep it all in perspective. Had a US politician said those things, your level of outrage would be justified. Had the President said them, even more. But a group of comedians on a late night show that mocks the news? Not so much.

25. Marzo 2009, 16:47:35
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
ScarletRose:     This is what we do on a politics discussion board.  We yap.  Now pull up a seat.  ;)

25. Marzo 2009, 16:42:04
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: You'd be wrong then.
(V):  So would you. 

25. Marzo 2009, 06:54:57
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re:
ScarletRose:This board helps lower my blood pressure. 

25. Marzo 2009, 00:55:42
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Fox News produces it, they own it.I don't care what time of the day or number of viewers the show has,Fox stamps their name on it.
Jim Dandy:Translation:  "I hate Fox news and so I'm going to make a really big deal out of this small mole hill."

Looks like exploitation to me.  Not a good thing. 

24. Marzo 2009, 23:37:18
Papa Zoom 
Argomento: Re: Really.. a non issue... Perhaps you could tell the Canadian Defence Minister that..

Jim Dandy:   It isn't about you or anyone else here.  It was a statement made on a comedy show.  They apologized.  It's not the official position of the US.  It's not what the average US citizen even thinks.  Many people, including myself, agree with Jules that it was in bad taste.  But it's over and done with.  There's nothing more to be said of it.  Canada complained, the offenders apologized, Canada accepted the apology.  So unless you are simply taking advantage of this situation for your own benefit (so you can appear offended - How Dare They!!!!) then accept it for what it is:  a mistake that was dealt with and now it's over with.  So go on to the next item.


~sigh


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