Groeneveld: Just click this link:
Tablut Reborn and request membership to the fellowship right there.

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Thanks.

Tablut - will the king survive? Nr. 6

harley: Could you add a link to Tablut Reborn in the description of this board?

[modified to add "Thanks harley!" ]

HalfPawn: It is a picture of a Spathi, from the computergame Starcontrol.

Salkkuman: Thanks...! I haven't proven it all the way yet, but maybe this is enough already to show how this rule destroys the game...

Fwiffo: Ty for trying to make the diffrence in the rules. I thought myself that this oppening would be easiest to show that white can get perpetual draw. Now i really hoped that Fencer would as fast as possible change the rules because now people can try take draws by following these lines.

Now what if black plays 1. ... d1-d5?

1. d5-d8 d1-d5
2. f5-f8 f1-f5 (or similar effect as the above perpetual raichi's)
3. e6-d6 a4-c4 (the other choice would be a6-c6, following later)
4. e7-e8 a6-a7
5. e5-e7 f5-f7
6. e7-b7 perpetual raichi

1. d5-d8 d1-d5
2. f5-f8 f1-f5
3. e6-d6 a4-c4
4. e7-e8 b5-b7
5. e5-e7 f5-f7
6. e7-c7 perpetual raichi

1. d5-d8 d1-d5
2. f5-f8 f1-f5
3. e6-d6 a4-c4
4. e7-e8 i6-e6
5. f8-f6 f9-f7
6. e5-e7 c4-c7
7. d6-f6 h5-h7
8. e8-f8 h7-g7 (8.... h7-f7, 9. e7-e6 f5-f6, 10. e6-b6 perpetual raichi)
9. e7-f7 e9-h9 (9. ... e9-f9 10. f8-g8 white wins)
10. f8-g8 d9-f9
11. f6-g6 i5-i7
12. f7-h7 perpetual raichi

1. d5-d8 d1-d5
2. f5-f8 f1-f5
3. e6-d6 a4-c4
4. e7-e8 i6-e6
5. f8-f6 f9-f7
6. e5-e7 c4-c7
7. d6-f6 f7-g7
8. e7-f7 e9-f9
9. e8-g8 d9-e9
10. f6-g6 h5-h7
11. f7-g7 I'm not going through all of the variants here... it's clear white will win or at least perpetual raichi

1. d5-d8 d1-d5
2. f5-f8 f1-f5
3. e6-d6 a4-c4
4. e7-e8 i6-e6
5. f8-f6 f9-f7
6. e5-e7 c4-c7
7. d6-f6 i4-g4
8. e8-f8 h5-h7
9. e7-g7 e9-g9
10. f8-h8 g4-g6 and perpetual raichi

1. d5-d8 d1-d5
2. f5-f8 f1-f5
3. e6-d6 a4-c4
4. e7-e8 i6-e6
5. f8-f6 f9-f7
6. e5-e7 c4-c7
7. d6-f6 i4-g4
8. e8-f8 g4-g7
9. f8-g8 h5-h7 (9. ... g7-f7, 10. e7-e6 and 11. e6-b6 perpetual raichi)
10. e7-f7 e9-f9
11. e4-e9 forced win

1. d5-d8 d1-d5
2. f5-f8 f1-f5
3. e6-d6 a4-c4
4. e7-e8 c4-c7
5. e4-d4 which threathens perpetual raichi, moves preventing this are a5-a4, b5-c5, b5-d5, e2-c2, e1-c1
I will continue here later.

Lately a lot of draws happened with me playing black, all perpetual raichi: 7 times since november.
I myself could have forced a draw under the existent rules in my latest game against ughaibu, a much better player.

The purpose of this post is to re-open the discussion on this issue.

Let me first point out a rule-change would take only a change in the description of the rules, not re-programming. This is important because it means it would take very little time for Fencer to adjust the rules. Just a text change.

What I'm trying to do is the following:
taking up the project ughaibu has started, I will try to prove white has a forced draw from the start. Maybe I will not succeed, but at least I will show the "perpetual raichi is draw" rule diminishes blacks options hugely and pervades the game in a negative way.

The move that leads the easiest to perpetual raichi is 1. d5-d8.

What are the options of the black player?

1. ... d1-d5, 1. ... d1-d7, 1. ... f9-f8, 1. ... e8-g8, 1. ... b5-b7. Those are the natural responses to d5-d8, although 1. ... d1-d7 is dubious already. Of course there is no need to explore every move, only the logical ones.

In this first part I will try to prove that in all but 1. ... d1-d5 white has perpetual raichi. In later parts I will try to do the same for 1. ... d1-d5, or at least make clear the game tree is narrowed so much when one tries to prevent perpetual raichi, the game loses much of its charm.

Here follow the variations:

1. ... d1-d7

1. d5-d8 d1-d7
2. e5-d5 e2-d2
3. d5-d3 b5-b3
4. e3-e2 h5-h3
5. c5-c2 e1-d1
6. e2-e1 f1-f2
7. d3-d2 white escapes

1. d5-d8 d1-d7
2. e5-d5 e1-d1
2. c5-c7 now white has 6 rows on which to give raichi with 4 soldiers to block. Moving e8 or e2 could reduce it only to 5 which is still perpetual raichi. The same goes for d1-d2, d9-d8, d9-d7, a6-d6. 2. ... d9-d6 fails to 3. c7-c6 perpetual raichi or win. 2. ... a4-d4, 2. ... d1-d3 and 2. ... d1-d4 will all be captured and are no reasonable defenses.

1. .... e8-g8/f9-f8

1. d5-d8 e8-g8/f9-f8
2. e5-d5 d1-d2
3. c5-c1 d9-c9
4. d8-c8 a6-d6
5. c8-c6 perpetual raichi

1. ... b5-b7

1. d5-d8 b5-b7
2. e5-d5 d1-d2
3. c5-c1 d9-c9
4. d8-c8 a6-d6
5. d5-b5 perpetual raichi

1. d5-d8 b5-b7
2. e5-d5 d1-d2
3. c5-c1 a4-d4
4. d5-c5 forced win

Congratulations to the winners of the Beginners Tablut tournaments:

Mirjam
mikkyT
George Miller
Robsaranga
Ferjo
Napoleon Solo
Krecik
Bratr (2x)
Kiwiyeti

Funny enough, the first Beginners Tournament was finished last! A decisive long-lasting battle between Mirjam & fungame resulted at last in a victory for Mirjam.
Although some players participated in more than one tournament, only Bratr succeeded in winning two tournaments.

Interested in Tablut?
You can learn the game or improve your play at Tablut Reborn.
The fellowship consists of players of all strength; everything between unrated and the top.

Tablut Reborn features are:
* unrated teach & learn tournaments
* rated tournaments
* a weekly puzzle
* game reviews
* demonstration games
* a collection of relevant internet links

Tablut tourney...

http://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=12917&tri=78387&trnst=0

Snigfarp and myself have completed the testing of Brandubh, a variant from the Hnefatafl family. Snigfarp beat me in 14 moves. I made a big strategic blunder by thinking I could just block exits and capture: but there are not enough pieces to net the king like in Tablut!
I must say I didn't like this variant nearly as much as our own Tablut. The pieces don't work together nicely and escape to the corners feels artificial. Here is the game:

1. B4-B6 D3-C3
2. F4-F2 E4-F4
3. D6-F6 D4-E4
4. F2-F3 D5-G5
5. F6-F5xF4 E4-E6
6. F5-F6 G5-G6xF6
7. F3-F6 E6-E5
8. G4-G5xG6 C3-F3
9. D2-F2 C4-G4
10. G5-F5 G4-G5xF5
11. F6-F4xF3 E5-E6
12. F4-F6 G5-G6xF6
13. F2-F6 E6-E3
14. F6-F2 G6-G2
Fwiffo resigns

mikkyT: yep, he has the malasian flag right now...

Hes stuck in Kualar Lumpar doing some training I believe.

where is Storm anyway, I miss him!

cryptoguru: And to think, so of us have to be productive when we go to work! (JK ... welcome Albondigas :)

Welcome Albondigas!

mikkyT:
Semantics!!

He hasn't beaten me

Managed to convert one of the other guys at work to start playing.

His name is Albondigas
... he sits opposite me and has been privy to the arguments and
strategy discussions between Stormerne, MikkyT and I.

Challenge him to a game ... he's a good player.

He's only played a few games and already he's beaten MikkyT ;-)
(beginners luck ... maybe ... or maybe not)

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1215524

Well done Albondigas

http://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=12397&tri=72074&trnst=0

A real tablut tournament for real tablut players. Switched colours for both teams ensuring a proper fair fight guv'nor and none of this holiday namby pamby m'larky.

7 days per game, up to a maximum of 15 days will ensure this competition will not last over 6 months without a winner!

The final will be a 5 games match, the winner being the one with the most points afterward.

Fwiffo:
I suppose the real question you're asking MikkyT is
'What's the Titon?'

<PS the above should be interpreted using colloquial English ask Mikky if you get stuck>

The top is an illusion created by Fencer to give you all a moment of grandeur

mikkyT:
As ughaibu is the god of Tablut, how could he also be a Titon?
Mirjam at the other hand, is far from a Titon; she is sweet and... well, too gentle to participate in such a fierce battle.

Not all have signed up yet and please note that "of the moment" means "of the moment of creation of the tournament". Of course I've picked the right moment, when I'm still at the top!

Nothing at all. Just that if that bug had not been introduced by Fencer, the rankings table would still be truly reflecting the games top players. That is all.

mikkyT:

Yawn Yawn ... are you upset about something again Mike?

;-)

http://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=12205&tri=69665&trnst=0&tp=19

Tablut Titans.

According to the description of this tournament, "This Tablut tournament is created in order to let the top Tablut players of the moment battle each other directly."

That is a blatant lie. In my mind, you are as good as your last game. So that counts out at least one of the privately invited members. Stuarts never been a top player, so thats two.

You can't have a top players tournament without including the top players. Mirjam and Mely, for example rank higher than some of the invitees. And finally, no titans tournament is complete without king of tablut, ugiahbu!

(This post may or may not have been created in jest

Anyone want to join cryptoguru's Speedy Scotch Tablut tournament to help him celebrate becoming a Brain Rook? Join NOW!

mikkyT:
Based on your current trends;
It won't be long until you can host another beginners tablut tournament and compete!!

;-)

[for those who don't realise ... this is harmless goading ... and MikkyT is used to it]

Winners of the beginners tablut series are invited to an invitational final event. So far the list is as follows:

mikkyT (#2)
George Miller (#3)
Robsaranga (#4)
Ferjo (#5)
Bratr (#8)

Waiting on #1, #6, #7, #9, #10

Fwiffo: Last move: 26. April 2005, 19:03:03

So whats the point here?

Cryptoguru:
http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=764547&i=21

I'm afraid I noticed some recession in his play also :)

WhisperzQ: I'm not sure ... his BKR seems to be around the beginners range now ;-)

(..... waiting for flames)

Fwiffo: Well done MikkyT, but I expect you will not be allowed in one of those again :)

MikkyT has won the Beginners Tablut #2!

Sorry, I'll correct that last statement, I dont mean to infer that its not really a bug. I accept this. Its hard to display in simple text that I am having a bit of light hearted fun. But at the same time I do think there are important issues underlying as well.

redsales: Well, if I've been penalised for selecting my opponents based on how much BKR I'm going to gain (which is what this 'bug' was based upon) then I put forward that coercing your opponent into playing to your strengths is just as bad!

mikkyT: his current BKR may also reflect his skill at inveigling others to play black against him! You know how some people play only one color on the solved games, like Horde and Maharajah? How do they get people to play with them? I could never figure it out, so I guess they deserve their BKR because I could never even get anyone to take a black battleboats plus game from me.

I have a proposal (serious one) for a new BKR, although I have yet to work out how this could be achieved.

Basically, with Tablut being a game with uneven sides and different strategies for both sides, the BKR should favour those who can win with both colours.

Certain people (referring to one individual in particular, lets call him Stuart, to protect his real identity) can only play with white. When he looses, 90% of the time it is with black. Ideally, that score should be representative of his lack of skill with the black pieces.

It seems those of us who where selective in their opponents and worked hard to achieve maximum BKR have been penalised for doing so.

mikkyT: I can assure you that you are not alone in taking a hit with your BKR ... I did reasonably in Tablut (comparatively) but have a few other games where my hard-earned has instantly evapourated. Maybe it was the bug and I didn't deserve to be where I was but in one game type with about 250 games played I have an 84% win rate (10% draw and 6% loss) and I have a rating of about 2150 ... go figure !

From a now unhappy WQ :(

cryptoguru: Personally I would like that. But then you and I are mathematicians. Most people I suspect will be happy to take it on trust though, as you suggest, it's easier to take something on trust when it's in the open (even if you don't understand it).

The previous system seemed to me to be done by a series of lookup tables which was sensitive to the difference between to the players and applied fixed increments/decrements in 200 BKR bands. What is done now I haven't had enough time to notice.

Stormerne: Joking aside ... it may be nice if the BKR calculation was posted so we could see how it works -> and people who took a big hit (like Mike) could have access to a dump of the recalc steps.

Just an idea

mikkyT: It's a good job that I know you personally and that (a) I know when you're joking and just trying to be provocative, and (b) I can come round to your office desk with a large baseball bat and give you a moderating you won't forget in a hurry. ;-)

Work within the system guys. And be nice. :-)

You worked hard? Don't make me laugh. You played white. I on the other hand, worked damn hard for my 2070 BKR, and now its been cut down to a lowly 1814. You don't seem to have been affected. I didn't realise you had gone to Europe for your holiday ;-)

mikkyT: Mike I think you'll find I worked damn hard for my BKR ... and if Fencer changes them again - I'll have to ask for my sizeable donation back ;-)

mikkyT: We can pretend it was all a bug if we want but I know different! It was just a way to subtly alter the top ten lists.