The Usurper: Yes, we have National health coverage as well as the ability for people to buy private policies if they wish.... often though in cases of speciality, it's the same consultant, just he's getting a little extra cash via his private patients.

I heard that the lack of universal health coverage is costing 10's of thousands of lives each year.... I can't understand a policy that kills it's own people through lack of a basic service necessary to peoples well being.

.... One doctor from Africa came over with his team recently to the USA to run a clinic for those without health insurance.... why is such a thing necessary? The USA's current system is inefficient, expensive to run and delivers less service then many many countries less rich then the USA.

Why the waste? Can't the USA government stand upto the lobbyists and tell them to get lost and be ready for change for the better in order to save lives?
Or are the 'perks' that some get from 'deals' to much to resist?

... Something stinks about the situation and that some put money above lives of their own people, basically via lack of care letting them die. Over here we call that Corporate manslaughter, those responsible would be in jail.

The Usurper: Don't they have a scheme like here in the UK? It was recognised that to encourage people to want to get back to work and come off benefits that a guarantee of a liveable wage was a must. So we got minimum wage laws, some have tried (employers) to get round this, but our Gov is giving those companies a very hard slapped wrist and telling them to stop... now.

Plus we have Workings Family Tax Credit, a scheme that tops up wages based on a guaranteed minimum earnings level, dependent on being able to show that you have a family and that your job (or jobs) do not meet a certain level of pay that a family would need to live on.

There are even schemes to encourage people to go from part time work to full time, and unless the law is changed, a cash incentive based on the savings the benefits people have saved during your period of part time employment.

But in this state of economy thanks to stupid bankers who it has been shown (over here in the UK) that they ignored advice given by their own risk management head men.... One company even fired the guy giving the warning, then replaced him with a guy who had no knowledge or background in risk assessment.

RBS (a bank) have been told that the contractual bonuses they were going to pay out were not acceptable and an insult to the British people (seeing as we bailed them out) ... So instead over £2 billion in bonuses to people who have screwed up, now they get the contractual minimum... and in shares only.. no cash.

Czuch: You know, one of the European countries on certain low risk crimes has the offender work as per normal during the week and has to goto jail at the weekends!! Part of their earnings goes to repay their debt.

Over here, the rules regarding unemployment benefit (or job seekers allowance as they call it now) is that you have to prove you are actually looking for a job. They expect you to keep records of you job searching And if after so long you've not got a job then you are expected to attend courses to improve your chances or lose a percentage of your benefit. You can also apply to get specific training for a certain job (such as specialist driving courses (HGV and Forklift), refresher courses for those who want to get back into a career they haven't done for a while, etc, etc.

But this is just what consecutive Conservative and Labour governments have implemented and added onto to cut down on those who in the past thought it was easy money!!

Don't get me wrong Czuch, I believe dangerous people should be kept of the streets until they are 'safe'... But imprisonment has become such a business in the USA, with (or so I am led to believe) not much is done to redirect the inmates, or fix the problems, or at least start the person on a proper program to fix things.

Czuch: I'm afraid 'role models' are abound in this day and age. Which leads people to try 'easy lives'... certain addictions are very hard to beat as you fully well know. Even with certain prescription drugs it can be a case that the person has to drop dosages to come off.

And unfortunately, a bad 'decision' can affect your employment opportunities, leading to temptation. Maybe there could be a change in the size of an effect when it comes to certain crimes and that people are made to remember that the debt has been paid off.

"its just too late for compassion when someone has made their own bed with bad choices."

No Czuch, you cannot really have compassion unless you understand the way of things and the dynamics of why... not quite true, you can see that there is a why even if you don't know which why..

... Sometimes people are molded, moved movers, not in control of themselves but possessed by 'demons' that dictate their decisions, so their will is not free. They are not making the choices as they are not aware, just surviving.

rod03801: It's not always that simple or easy. People have to learn how and learn how not. If the how nots are well established then a person may take a long time to get rid of them and replaces them with how.

Czuch: No. Sometimes people can just go that little to far on the job front that leaves the children missing what could be an important element in their lives.. a parent being there. And with peer pressure to try this and that to fill the void... ... being rich would then be a disadvantage, possibly deadly.

Czuch: Another possible is Post Traumatic Stress, I know one guy who fought in Northern Ireland during the troubles... Having your mate's head explode right in front of you from a bullet still leaves him with nightmares.

Bernice: I'm speaking from knowledge seeing some friends going through hell to be clean by facing their demons and such memories that couldn't be made into a film as it would disturb too many people seeing what can go on. I'm also stating FACT not opinion.

Artful Dodger: Also known about those who come from a poor household is that this can be the building place for a self made millionaire. So a generation is poor in a family, but a significant number of millionaires come from such families as well as people who do well.

Better a poor happy one parent family then an rich unhappy, uncaring two parent family where jobs come before family.

rod03801: No you didn't, but I was stating a matter of fact about people abusing themselves that is known by health professionals in mental care, counsellors, healers, clergy and any other person who has taken the time to look into why.

As you say, there is a reason why.

rod03801: Blame the person who abuses themselves through having being abused? ...... The only thing I say is what I've seen.... Don't blame the abused person, only get them to admit they have a problem. Do you think they wanted to be abused?

As for marijuana ... It depends on the type as there are two active ingredients, THC and CBD. The first is good for pain and the second is a good anti psychotic. As one scientist said who is growing the plants for our gov.. "It depends on how the plant is grown as to much THC lowers the production of CBD in the plant.

As for saying it's the person with the harder drugs... Again, you cannot blame a heavily abused person (of all 4 types of abuse that I know of) being abused and therefore using heavy drugs to run from the pain... You ask a professional in the field and they will tell you the same if they are any good.

Bwild: Yes... and in chemists as well So? There is an old saying amongst the wise.. "only the abused abuse themselves"

Cause... symptoms are just the evidence, and drug abuse is one of the symptoms.

Bwild: Which ones? The legal or illegal or both? And that's moving onto blaming rather then stating the obvious... There is a problem with some people that is a carried down 'burden' which leads to people just trying to survive.

Drugs are not the cause, they are just an evident result of the cause.

Cause of poverty...... Greed. As one description says ...an empty hole in the persons or governments heart or policy that looks only to the glitter of gold that only fills such holes or lack of wisdom for a short while and new fillings are constantly required.

... Education and the showing of self worth and that gold is not all that glitters.

And less war... It's a waste generally of money, especially in causes that are no-brainers.

Artful Dodger: They say change is one of the true constants of the universe....... anyone who just stands still and does not move is practically dead... ie the unmoved mover or the moved mover.

Life flows.....

Artful Dodger: ..."On the other hand, the Israelis recognized the PLO and not the rights of
the Palestinians, and accepted the existence of a Palestinian people
(for the time being) as an ethnic minority and not as a people with
national rights. For some this seemed as a great victory, but for others
it was clear that the PLO leadership was more preoccupied with form rather
than content.

As matters stand now, the PLO gave up its right to a free Palestine. It
switched camp: it is not opposing imperialism anymore. In return, the
Palestinians were acknowledged as an ethnic minority with no political
rights, and THE ARAB REGIMES COULD WASH THEIR HANDS OF ANY PAN ARAB RESPONSIBLITY TOWARDS PALESTINE....


Apples and oranges? Both fighting another religion, both fighting for the end of occupation by a 'foreign' country, both wars so much based on old hates, fences, border guards, car bombs, mortars, assasinations... and a supposed civilised country giving aid to those who would kill terrorist supporters and activists in the style of info on who and where they are, as opposed to a foreign country blocking international intervention causing the war to continue leading to the death of both friendly and hostile people.

And ahhh yes... The USA supplying money and arms free (through private citizens) to the IRA, and to Israel supplying guns through the government allowing weapons contracts.

And btw.... whatever happened to compliance of security council resoloution 242 and the compliance of it?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&ei

Jim Dandy: Actually I know a story regarding something on those lines....

I have an aunt who lives in Ireland, and my parents from time to time go over and visit her on holiday. One day my parents ended up in a pub to have a spot of lunch and a drink, it turned out though that there was a gathering of certain activists on the IRA side having a chat and discussing things that were private and especially not for the ears of English folk. So... The Pub owner said sorry to my parents and that unfortunately they couldn't actually be in the pub at that time. He also said that the pub across the road was a nice pub and as a matter of apology to tell the landlord he had sent them and that the first drink was to be on him.

Czuch: Partly yes... many still ain't sure, it's a bit difficult to say Iraq has a true democracy when the gun is still used to control so much of daily life.

History sorta says that a true democracy takes years to get into place, and the possibility of a civil war is quite high.

Artful Dodger: I guess under your real world we'd still be fighting in Northern Ireland, instead of as happened in the real REAL world where people and politicians talked and came to a peace agreement which resulted in the Loyalists and the IRA disarming and now sorting their difference out in talks and government.

Decades of hate and fighting sorted, terrorists just now normal citizens no longer feeling the need to kill thanks to talk.

Artful Dodger: Hitler was a madman given the opportunity to arise thanks to a certain end of WWI treaty.

We are supposed to be civilised educated intelligent people with the ability to solve problems rather then make ones.

Czuch: No, not force life.... Give them the choice to be what they want, with their worries and concerns talked about and allow them to live. Otherwise nothing changes, you might get a short break, but the same problems will still be there.

For example, why are we here at this point? What caused the current situation to start in the first place decades ago? Why hasn't anything been done by the international community to break up the situation before hand, who are the ones helping keeping a solution from been made.

Czuch: All leaders make big speeches..... Churchill did, Bush has (both daddy and son).....

And as you say.. time will tell on how bad or good he is, presuming where the USA and the world might be in 5 years is never that accurate.

Artful Dodger: It sounds like something from the Art of War. And a basic strategy towards peace.

Czuch: I thought it more of a case that she made Bush squirm, not many politicians like to be on the spot.

Czuch: Wow... enhanced interrorgation (sp) of prisoners is an achievement.... Rejecting a treaty that pretty much now he and his admin say is correct in terms that they are 90%+ sure that the reasons behind the treaty were well founded now.

.... What a great Republican site you found Czuch, but can you find a neutral one, not Repub or Liberal?

Czuch: It was Papa Bush. After the Kuwait business, those who didn't like Saddam were encouraged to uprise by Papa Bush's admin , but at the time they needed outside help they got none. So Saddam went around and slaughtered them all.

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/49864/?page=entire

Czuch: You mean the uprising that was called for by Bush in 1991 and when it came to actual foreign support was cancelled the Intifada were left to Saddam's *cough* mercy.

Vikings: Mmmm If Bush had rolled up with a convoy of stuff and men at the state line and asked the people if they wanted help, or asked the Gov to get and explain to him why he should turn around the convoy on public TV....

.... It's called politics and the appliance of.

Czuch: If.... yes the word is If......... And forgive me for stating some of the obvious, but would Bush have gone in if it wasn't for his support from our UK Gov? And 'If' Iraq is stable, it'll be noted that Bush had no plan for the aftermath of the invasion and that many ripped off the American tax payer through charging over the odds.

It'll be noted that the presidents after cleaned up the mess.

Czuch: No terrorist attacks... so those internal ones don't count?

He didn't kill Saddam, the Iraqi's did. Under their law, and quite a mess by the video.
A democratic Iraq..... Only partially, as it's not a stable area, with even police supplying arms to enemy combatants.
Freedom.... Not yet, the war isn't over and the fear of being killed is still so much present just like under Saddam.
More stability..... .... He opened up a can of worms, and made Iraq a central point for anti western types to goto.
Fewer people messing with the USA.... Not really, If you look at it logically through the resources committed to Iraq the USA is in a weaker position to defend itself against a powerful country, or of a group of countries.
More of a national debt you mean!!
Well then, the other presidents can't of done much, as it's not exactly been in the news much what he's done for Africa.
... He went on holiday alot at the expense of the American people.

Czuch: I doubt it I'll be dead when certain records become unsealed.... But certain records are being kept locked are they not?

As for the benefits.... A short list would be good.

Jim Dandy: I think they'd all be saying that an end to this situation needs to be found, but as for the way..... Mmmmmmmm

Jim Dandy: Not sure, even in Israel opinion is split.

Jim Dandy: A step to far, peaceful protests are the traditional tool of voicing opinion. It's not the Jewish communities outside Israel fault.

Ever seen "Don't mess with the Zohan"?

Bernice: Well he did use quite a few against the Iranians, though that wasn't exactly punished as Iran was the 'enemy' at the time and Saddam was being used as a 'weapon' against the Iranians by certain western governments.

And I think after the Kuwait business Saddam knew he had to tow the line re WMD's.. or else.

Czuch: The punishment depends on who it is and who their friends are in the international community. As I've mentioned, Israel have been naughty several times and certain UN resolutions and security council actions have all been vetoed by the USA, therefore stopping any action or punishment even though Israel broke international and UN laws.

It's a funny old world.

Hurrah!! The UN security council have passed a resolution on the conflict... Thankfully a usually vetoing country abstained.

Bernice: Old wounds can take a long time to heal.... But if they can do it in NI then there is hope.

Artful Dodger: Ok.. we are getting somewhere at last. Basically what I've been saying all along.

The Palestinians need a secure whole homeland. One with space!! So one or two of their Arab neighbours needs to give some land up, ideally next to the west bank and Israel needs to withdraw all settlements in such area, proper border controls under UN troops control and we might be getting somewhere.

Artful Dodger: So a people that have lived in that area called by different names including Palestine are not entitled to a home? Is that what you are saying.

They should (like the Jews) just be nomadic and be spread all over the world?

.. I was using the American Indians as an example.

Btw.. what do you think of the Haganah terrorists?

Artful Dodger: Country names change.... We even get invented ones like Belgium... Still, there was a population there, living their for many, many years.

Btw.. what do you think of the Haganah terrorists?

Artful Dodger: Right...... So why in America, are the Native Americans getting back land and ownership of land that was taken from them by a foreign invader from another country?

Artful Dodger: So the people living in Palestine could not be called Palestinians?

.. and as for "They never had a government, never were an organized people, have no history in the land," maybe they were ruled, but many after WWI and WWII gained their autonomy.... The Red Indians lived in America before us Europeans moved over... Were they not a people? Never were organised...

From the encyclopaedia Brtannica..
History » From 1900 to 1948

In the last years of the 19th century and the early years of the 20th, the Palestinian Arabs shared in a general Arab renaissance. Palestinians found opportunities in the service of the Ottoman Empire, and Palestinian deputies sat in the Ottoman parliaments of 1877, 1908, 1912, and 1914. Several Arabic newspapers appeared in the country before 1914. Their pages reveal that Arab nationalism and opposition to Zionism were strong among some sections of the intelligentsia even before World War I. The Arabs sought an end to Jewish immigration and to land purchases by Zionists. The number of Zionist colonies, however, mostly subsidized by the French philanthropist Edmond, baron de Rothschild, rose from 19 in 1900 to 47 in 1918, even though the majority of the Jews were town dwellers. The population of Palestine, predominantly agricultural, was about 690,000 in 1914 (535,000 Muslims; 70,000 Christians, most of whom were Arabs; and 85,000 Jews.

And no history in the land... explain who the ottoman's were ruling and like in many latter empires teaching them to look after themselves?

Pre 1914 they recon (approx due to lack of records pre mandate) that there may have been a population of over 700,00 people living in that region under Ottoman rule.

Artful Dodger: Never ever any Arabs living in that area before Israel applied and eventually got recognised as a country by the UN?

.... Who did live there under the Ottoman Empire times?

Czuch: Actually this is under work via the UN and various important people who both sides actually listen to.

Czuch: Then you just become another mass murderer like Hitler and the Nazis... And what happened to them in court after WWII?

Artful Dodger: http://www.palestine-net.com/history/bhist.html The complete history of the area/country known as Palestine.....

And please in full quote stuff I have quoted..
"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

And yes, Palestine is a Latin word.. Like many Latin words which the English language uses or derivatives of. As we also use words based on Greek, German, French, Spanish, etc, etc, etc. And?

As a certain famous film says.. "What have the Romans done for us... Aqueducts!!"..

Artful Dodger: You said ..."showing with evidence when and where this Palestine "country" was."

I have. Not only as under ancient names as used by the ruling force, but also as a name as chosen at the end of WWI. The Arab People were there before the influx of Jewish people after WWI. Israel may have a long 'history' but compared to the other races that have lived their before and after the fall of Israel/Palestine as a nation in olden days. Even if Jesus's day the area was known as Palestine.

http://www.answers.com/topic/palestine..