Übergeek 바둑이: Some followers of God do.. some don't. It is in essence a matter of dogma, also as in some cases old fears and grudges. It is not how all God followers feel regarding God or other people.

http://www.jewfaq.org/human.htm .... explains more and in certain respects goes away from the standard 'Bible basher' view regarding sin and evil.. or as described in such as Buddhism or Zen as ego. In the past I found most religions complement each other to an honest observer. There again as one who tends to find the likes of Eastern Orthodoxy and the Desert fathers as a more pure form of Christianity without the influences of Roman and Greek Gods imposed on God.

Artful Dodger:

> Sarah! Sarah! Sarah!

Any woman who handles firearms like this deserves to be president:

http://orangejuiceblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/sarah-palin-with-gun.jpg

If you are a terrorist, she will do to you what she did to this caribou:

http://www-hollywoodlife-com.vimg.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/120610_palin_gallery_21239_3773.jpg

More seriously, at this point, it is difficult to say who the Republicans will choose. I would have said that Donald Trump has a chance, but his insistence on the "birther" issue will probably do him more harm than good. The Tea Party people will try to promote Sarah Palin. At the present she is their most widely supported candidate 14% of the Tea Party vote) although 34% of the Tea Party membership is still undecided.

"In a Rasmussen poll taken January 11–14, 2011, Huckabee was even with Obama: 43% - 43%." It seems that Mike Huckabee is the current Republican front runner. I suspect that if the Republicans could have a ticket such as Mike Huckabee for president and Sarah Palin for vice-president, then they would have a very strong position in the next election. It would all depend on whether such a ticket would be acceptable to Tea Party supporters and the genereal Republican membership.</a>

Artful Dodger:

> Desecrate A Quran, Go To Jail; Desecrate A Bible, Get Subsidized & Have It Displayed As 'Art'

(V):

> ".....By the book is a container of pens and a notice saying: “If you feel you have been excluded from the Bible, please write your way back into it.”

Sometimes what passes for art is dubious. I see the point of what the artist was trying to point out to. Man is made in God's image. It seems reasonable to feel excluded from the Bible since the Bible presents a relatively narrow view of right and wrong, and it excludes a large number of people in the world (basicly anybody who does not believe in the Abrahamic God).

At the same time, people write comments that express anger and resentment, without being constructive. If the artist had been smarter, he would have put several sacred texts. Put a Koran next to a Bible, a Bhaghavad Gita, a Book of Mormon, the Digha Nikaya, etc. Then present a juxtaposition: Made in what God's image? If you feel left out by any God in particular, write yourself back in.

Well, religion arises a lot of passion in people. The reason why I never had faith in any God is because while God may have made man in its (his, hers?) own image, man tries to portray God in his own image. In giving to God human qualities, we limit God to our own human foibles (God is jealous, vengeful, wrathful, etc.) We assign to God human limitations and emotions, and thus reduce God to our level. We view God as a petty minded, jealous, selfish individual, rather than as an all-encompassing limitless being who sees beyond the distinctions of organized religion, which is in essence a limiting human construct.

Organized religion reduces God a favoritist being who favours one group of human beings at the exclusion of all others. Those in my religion will go to Heaven. Those outside of it will go to Hell. God will make sure of that, because God, limited as we human beings are, plays favorites in the universe.

In that sense Buddhism is the superior belief system. The ego is the limiting factor, not God. It is the petty atttachments of the ego that limit humanity and make it selfish, jealous, vengeful, wrathful, etc. Our view of God within those limitations is merely a projection of our ego, and not a protrayal of God himself.

Well, it is hypocritical to single out the Bible that way, as it is hypocritical to burn the Koran, or to single out any organized religion. But the artist is trying to provoke a response. Unfortunately, western society is obsessed with religion and the validity of Christianity.

Tuesday: Sounds quite anti-white and anti-man.

someone like Margaret Thatcher would do good

Tuesday: What on Earth is “anti-woman”? I have barely gotten over people calling each other “anti-American” and now there are some who are “anti-woman” and “anti-man”?

"You know, all the right has is talk radio. That’s it. When you see the forces arrayed against you that we were just doing the commercial for Freedom Works, that’s what I meant by that. When you see the forces arrayed against you, it is staggering."

Reminds me of...

"...Nazi propaganda strategy, officially promulagated by the Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda, stressed several themes. Their goals were to create external enemies (countries that allegedly inflicted the Treaty of Versailles on Germany) and internal enemies (Jews). Hitler and Nazi propagandists played on the anti-Semitism and resentment present in Germany. The Jews were blamed for things such as robbing the German people of their hard work while themselves avoiding physical labour..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_propaganda

Artful Dodger:

"The same government that is subsidizing the Bible desecration has also just arrested a Welsh Assembly candidate for burning his own copy of a Quran. No hypocrisy there. None at all."

The man who burnt the Quran is a member of BNP. The defacement of the Bible was part of an exhibition titled "Made in God’s Image"

".....By the book is a container of pens and a notice saying: “If you feel you have been excluded from the Bible, please write your way back into it.”

The exhibit, Untitled 2009, was proposed by the Metropolitan Community Church, which said that the idea was to reclaim the Bible as a sacred text. But to the horror of many Christians, including the community church, visitors have daubed its pages with comments such as “This is all sexist pish, so disregard it all.” A contributor wrote on the first page of Genesis: “I am Bi, Female & Proud. I want no god who is disappointed in this............”

Übergeek 바둑이: By this post and that link Art posted. Glenn is on the left

Artful Dodger:

"The CBC is anti-American ... Thank God for Fox news ..."

(V):

Reading a little bit more on the subject, it seems that Glenn Beck has made some mistakes in his broadcasts. It seems that the controversial comments that he made went beyond calling Obama or Sotomayor racist.

In June of 2010 Beck was acused of being an anti-semite, although I am not entirely sure whether the accusation was founded. In one of his radio shows he praised McCarthyism and recommended a book called "The Red network". It was written in 1936 and it is a book about communism and those communists who had "infiltrated" American society. I have not read the book myself, but apparently the book is full of anti-semitism, racism and religious bigotry. Apparently in some passages it even tries to justify what the Nazis were doing at the time. It is an old book, inconsequential in historical terms, but it added to Beck's controversies. I suspect it is a case of Mr. Beck perhaps not reading the book thoroughly and then showing poor judgement.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201006070053

In one of his TV shows Glenn Beck insinuated that the Jews had killed Jesus. This prompted a response from the Anti-Defamamtion League:

http://www.adl.org/media_watch/tv/20100805-Fox+News+Channel.htm

Later in 2010 Mr. Beck produced two segments in his show in which he attacks and demonizes George Soros. He called George Soros a Nazi colaborator and the "puppet master" of a conspiracy to create a world government. As a result of the attacks on George Soros the Anti-Defamation League strongly critized Glenn Beck.

The original Beck broadcast:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkESPAgrJ8w

http://www.adl.org/PresRele/HolNa_52/5906_52.htm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/11/adl-beck-soros_n_782420.html

There have been other instances such as Glenn Beck comparing Reform Judaism to Radical Islam. Glenn Beck has also used comparisons of the Holocaust to other events in the media. For example, he compared the campaign to raise awareness about global warming to the Holocaust. The ADL and a group of over 400 Rabbis raised concerns about the easy way in which he uses the Holocaust to make his political points.

I don't think Glenn Beck is an anti-semite, but he has shown poor judgment and little things have slowly added up to the point where he became a liability to his employers. Glenn beck thrived in controversial topics, and that was bound to offend some people.

Übergeek 바둑이: Over here if someone acted like that on a show... sacked. It does not matter about the apology it just is a step to far in terms of bad taste.

But.. I guess the hate of others towards Obama justifies his kid being used in a bad joke, in the minds of those who hate Obama that is.

Artful Dodger: No... you brushed it aside. seems you've turned liberal. At least that is what you keep accusing those who do not support you in your opinion. Just as you seem to brush aside that the modern terrorists from Islamic faiths are a creation of America and other western countries, who abused a religion and created terrorists to kill Soviet troops. Blame Raygun and the CIA if anyone.

(V):

> I just thought.. is this change of subject just leaving this question unanswered??

The answer is that in that particular radio broadcast Glenn Beck was at his worst. There is no way anyone could justify his actions there. It is why the topic was brushed aside. What could anyone say to justify Glenn Beck? Glenn Beck did apologize later. It was the least he could do.

.......Pilate appears in all four Canonical gospels in association with the responsibility for the death of Jesus. In Matthew, Pilate washes his hands to show that he was not responsible for the execution of Jesus and reluctantly sends him to his death.[4] Mark, depicting Jesus as innocent of plotting against the Roman Empire, portrays Pilate as extremely reluctant to execute Jesus, blaming the Jewish priestly hierarchy for his death and washing his hands not of Jesus (as in Matthew) but of the Sadducees and of any association with their actions........

Good Muslim, Bad Muslim: America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror

"Labeling us, and our acts, as terrorism is also a description of you
and your acts," bin Laden said recently. "Our acts are a reaction to
your acts." In this meandering rumination on modern-day terrorism,
Mamdani takes a controversial step by agreeing with bin Laden, at least
on this point; he argues that groups like al-Qaeda are generally
motivated by legitimate political grievances with U.S. foreign policy.
"In a nutshell," Mamdani writes, "the U.S. government decided to harness
and even to cultivate terrorists" during the latter half of the Cold
War as it sought to roll back the Soviet Union’s global influence. Now,
with that legacy coming back to haunt its creators, Mamdani concludes
that "no Chinese wall divides ‘our’ terrorism from ‘their’ terrorism.
Each tends to feed the other."

Politicizing notions of Islam by differentiating between secular,
Westernized ("good") Muslims and fanatical, medieval ("bad") Muslims,
Mamdani argues, misrepresents the often apolitical character of Islam.
It also dangerously ignores cold war-era American complicity in the
turbulence of the Muslim world through the waging of proxy wars,
particularly the one in Afghanistan in which, says Mamdani, the CIA
created Osama bin Laden.

"Forget the huffingtonpost link for now, we'll come back to that.

Yes, we should forget it because that is the one where Glenn Beck says that Obama hates black people, but then, he was just ridiculing Obama's daughter. I guess it doesn't count in your eyes."

I just thought.. is this change of subject just leaving this question unanswered??

Artful Dodger:

All I can say is if I generalize about Christians fundamentalists, you do so with Moslems. There are good Chistians (the vast majority) and there are a few destructive Christian zealots (like David Koresh).

Likewise there are good Moslems (the vast majority) and there are the zealots who engage in terrorism. If every Moslem were a terrorist, the USA would have no hope of winnig because there would be over 1 billion terrorists against the USA. Islamis terrorists are a small minority of what otherwise is a mostly peaceful religion.

Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists use the literal Interpretation of the Koran as justification for their actions. Likewise, some extremist fundamentalist Christians use the Bible as justification for their actions too.

Christians are not perfect. If they were, Chistians would never commit crimes or sins. They would never contradict themselves. Anybody who even remotely understands the Sermon on the Mount could never justify killing anybody under any circumstances. Yet many Christians have read it and they still justify wars and politically motivated killing (like the killing of communists during the Cold War or the killing of terrorists during the War on Terror). Christians are not immune to brushing aside their most cherished beliefs when politics and economics come into play.

If you as a Christian take a self-righteous stance and point the finger at others (like Moslems), you should not be surprised when others turn around and point the finger at Christians.

Artful Dodger:

> That's because those like you on the LEFT are so dishonest you'll stretch anything to make your lame points.

And the religious right in the USA does not stretch the truth? How quickly you forget how the USA sees itself as a Christian nation, and how religious leaders in the USA advocated the war. George W. Bush made the war a Christian crusade against "Islamic terrorism", and the religious right bought it. Then, when it was shown that the WMD claims were false and manufactured, the religious right went on to hide their heads in the sand and make lame excuses. Oh, it was OK to take out Saddam and the religious overtones of the Bush admnistration had nothing to do with it. Christianity had nothing to do with it anyway. We just go back to our churches and forget the whole thing, because it was somebody else who did the killing on our behalf. What matters is what Jesus taught, not the fact that before going on the battlefield, our soldiers lowered their head to pray to Jesus.

Here is your assignment. Prove to me that christians are NOT violent and cruel when it suits their political and economic interests. Prove to me that christians don't brush aside their scriptures when it is convenient. One thing is the New Testament, and another is what Christians actually do. Let's conveniently separate the two, then Christianity remains unscathed.

Artful Dodger:

Perhaps I did not make my point clearly. All I said is that fundamentalists interpret scripture literally, and use scripture to justify their actions.

The New Testament has no references to rape or murder being acceptable. There are some references to slavery and slaves submitting to their masters, particularly is some of the writings by Paul.

Christians are different. When a Christian commits a crime, it is seen as external to the religion. He is a sinner, without reflecting on the scriptures themselves.

I will say this. Christian fundamentalists do use the Old Testament as a source of justification for their actions. For example, David Koresh used the Old testament extensively in justifying the sexual abuse of young girls.

A lot of Christians also believe in "biblical inerrancy", the belief that everything in the Bible is accurate, right and true. Many of these people interpreted the Bible to justify things such as the Iraq War and the atrocities that went on there and elsewhere. Christians are not immune to contradictions between scriptures and their actions.

4 So Moses said, “This is what the LORD says: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. 6 There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt—worse than there has ever been or ever will be again. 7 But among the Israelites not a dog will bark at any person or animal.’ Then you will know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.

Our God commits genocide!!??!!

OT or NT .. it's still the same God.

Artful Dodger: Still OUR GOD WHO IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE DONE IT!!

Artful Dodger: Yes... who trained these "terrorists" to be such good fighters. We did. We trained them to kill others. Did we wash our hands afterwards?

"The best jules could do was go back in time - way back."

Uganda is a current problem in which many African churches are extreme. We had cases in the UK of Christian abusing children in the name of God, calling them "witches".

A sin is a sin. Making one's enemies sins bigger does not in the eyes of God (as far as I remember from scripture) make yours any less.

Artful Dodger:

> Give some current examples of Christians blowing up planes, gunning down children, shooting rockets at unarmend civilians, blowing themselves up at market, stoning or lashing offenders.

What about a Christian president and his Christian cabinet ordering war planes to another country, then sending 400,000 civilians to their death? Did not George W. Bush said that the US was engaged in a crusade?

"This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while."

I suppose there is no contradiction between claiming to be a Christian and then openly advocating a war that kills hundreds of thousands.

People sometimes forget that the Old Testament is full of examples of killing, rape and abduction of women. For example:

Judges 21:8-14

8 Then they asked, “Which one of the tribes of Israel failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah?” They discovered that no one from Jabesh Gilead had come to the camp for the assembly. 9 For when they counted the people, they found that none of the people of Jabesh Gilead were there.
10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.

Thus the Israelites murdered all those men and their wives, then took their virgin daughters who were forcibly married to the Bejaminites. Murder, abduction and in many cases, rape. I doubt those women wilfully consented considering that their families had been murdered.

Numbers 31: 7-20

7 They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.
13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the LORD in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the LORD’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
19 “Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.”

Midianite virgins were abducted after the killing of their families. Then the sin was purified by merely "purifying themselves" on the 3rd and 7th days. Now a pattern of murder, abduction and rape is emerging. Obviouly it was culturally acceptable in that era.

Deuteronomy 20:

10 When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace. 11 If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject to forced labor and shall work for you. 12 If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to that city. 13 When the LORD your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14 As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies. 15 This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16 However, in the cities of the nations the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17 Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

Pillage, plunder, murder, rape, slavery and genocide. These are the laws of war from Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 22

These are some of my favorites. If a man accuses his wife of not being a virgin and she is found guilty, she is to be stoned to death:

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman’s virginity can be found, 21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

Consensual sex between a man and a married woman or a virgin demands the death sentence:

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

My favorite is this:

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[c] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

A man can rape a virgin, pay her father and marry her. Thus a woman is forced to marry her rapist and live with him for the rest of her life.

We notice that in essence, fundamentalists are applying laws from the Old Testament literally. This is true among Islamic fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists alike. Those who interpret scripture literally are bound to read these passages and use them as an excuse for cruelty and brutality.

Tuesday: ... and sell books/dvd's justifying they are right via the likes of "True Christians"(tm)...

Artful Dodger: Capitalism.. Conservatism as in the war against Communism.

And btw... "What other religion actually celebrated the 9/11 attacks," ... some Christians celebrated the event and still celebrate the deaths of all the American soldiers who die on foreign soil.

"What other religion has verses in its holy book that remind men of their divine permission to beat their wives and rape their slaves?"

...... The Bible!?! .. in the sense of how some have taken to interperate it's divine message of the man being the head of the household over the ages..... Christians. How long ago is it Women had to fight for the right to vote?

(V): Do we really want to know?

Mousetrap: I wonder how big the parts shop is for that show??

(V): Your not kidding Real Housewifes? They should call it Fake Housewifes, everything about them is fake

Mousetrap: It'd beat Real Housewifes!!