alanback: deaf ears as in mute (no) responses or did they offer an explanation ?

Fencer: mentallay : it makes seem that losing isnt that bad .. although i think the outcome would be the same with 0 for a loss, 0.5 for a single win, 1.5 for a gammon win, and 2.5 for a backgammon win

i didnt do any maths for it yet though .. giving 0.5 for a loss will make it possible for the scores for a win (single, gammon, backgammon) to be the same as in normal games .. i think thats why they chose to make a loss 0.5 points .. it requires less changes

AlliumCepa: hmm .. the capital S gives me away .. i have to admit i copy&pasted it :)

nabla: i dont know the inventor's idea either
i am playing trictrac on a dutch site now (i didnt know of the game before yesterday) and its different from, backgammon

i dont know why mike named it trictrac .. but to me it feels 'not-right' to change its name (at least not without contacting him ..which i dont know how to do as he seems to be on a long vacation)

Fencer: ah ok .. i thought tavla was slightly different .. but thats my mistake as i did leanr backgammon on here and all my 'knowledge' of backgammon comes from this site ;)

Fencer: hmm .. just the name ? the rules remain the same .. we could even come up with a Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious name which could be abbreviated to TTT :)

Fencer: you dont change the name of backgammon either though .. so it might be correct to call it TTT as its probably based on tric trac ?

AlliumCepa: the TTT i refer to exists of single game matches without cube .. its nice for its aggresive play and the gammon training

a tournament with another scoring system as you describe would be fun as well :)

joshi tm: yes ... would be nice somehow to add to the bkr the difference with which a game was won (nice for froglet :))

this Grand Gammon Tournament has that .. but the main purpose is to let the players focus on gaining gammons .. its a nice training :)

(at least it helped for me :))

nabla: the doubling cube isnt there .. but gammons and backgammons are still counted

its all single game matches though

(the luck factor is still bigger than in a tournament with a doubling cube though)

AbigailII: it encourages people to take more risks .. it encourages them to play for a gammon (instead of being content with a single win)

you need to win at least a few gammons to make a chance to win the tournament

Fencer: ok boss! ;) hmm .. does anyone have a fitting name for such a tournament ? (it encourages playing for gammon more than in normal tournaments)

GPT ? (gammon play tournament)

Thad: not sure if its the same as the ratio is different .. but when i tried to make an example proving you wrong i couldnt find any quickly :)

i already talked about it with fencer and i think he likes it and its not that hard to implement.

would anyone like this type of tournament ?

people who also play on dailygammon probably already know the TTT tournaments.
I am not sure if other players are familiar with it ?

summarized its a tournament in which every plays 1 match (of 1 game) against all other players (so if there are 20 players in a tournament each players plays 19 matches, giving a total of 190 matches)
you gain points for every match you play :
1 point for a single win
2 points for a gammon win
3 points for a backgammon win
0.5 points for a loss (single, gammon, or backgammon)

the player with the most points when all matches are finished is the winner of the tournament

this leads to some nice gammon play, players will take more risks to gain a gammon as they will still win 0.5 points if they lose (0.5+2)/2 > 1

what do you all think ? should we have it on here as well ?
(erik from dailygammon is ok if we have it on here as well)

playBunny & joshi tm: ok thanks .. i reported it in the bug tracker :)

in this game i am only allowed to move from 5 to 4 (sending his piece to the bar) . after that i cant make another move as i will have a piece on the bar as well (cloning gammon)

in this case i think it should be allowed for me to move a piece from 3 to 2 as well .. that way i cant move my 4-die .. but if i make the move which is allowed right now, then i cant move my 4-die either

is this a bug ? or is this supposed to be this way ?

nabla: black with a tiny light edge = tiny light edges and are black otherwise :)

Marfitalu: oops i missed that the fencer asked for the back men in the start position

Marfitalu: isnt it so that all the men that are furthest away from bearing off are called back men ?

alanback: yeah :( *comfort*

i think we should have a tournament bkr in which you also get points for being 2nd in a tournament, or when you reach a next round :)

nabla: ah yes please ... that would be great! .. i only learned about the cube when it came online on here and know very little about it .. just what i just mentioned :)

1 thing which i didnt mention is that my opponent probably doesnt want to leave his spot there because its his only chance to send me back .. therefore he will probably move his other men first and giving me more opportunities for a gammon (unless he rolls a 6 ;))

we are a few moves further now and i decided to open up a bit in favor of bearing off extra men .. it leaves me more vulnerable though .. but i think i need that if i want to gammon him :)

please dont give hints or strategies which can be used in this game while its going on though ..

i am explaining my own thoughts in this one .. which might help my opponent .. but thats my own choice ;)

btw nable and i have a game going as well with a nice doubling example .. if i remember correctly from about half an hour ago :)

Nothingness: like this position. i might be able to finish the game before he gets all his men home and bears 1 off ... that would give me 2 points (3-0 in the 7 point match) ... but .. i think i wont be able to gammon him .. i think the wisest action for me would be to offer the double .. so that he would decline .. giving me 1 point (2-0 in the 7 point match) .. by offering the double and getting the game i wont risk being caught by his single piece in case i roll badly and leaving a single men
but as i am not a wise man .. and i like to gammon .. i wont offer the double yet and just risk a bit for this 1 extra point (gammon) and hope i wont roll something like 6+3 twice in a row

Nothingness: the doubling cube only makes sense in a match of more than 1 point

by declining the cube offer you will lose that game, but not the match (unless if its the last point your opponent needs)

in the end game when you are far behind your opponent, your opponent can offer the double, you will of course decline, and the game will finish a bit faster :)

in the end game when both are not that far apart, one can offer a double if he think he will win .. if he was correct then he wins double the points he would have otherwise won

the trick is to find where you will still win, and your opponent might still accept .. i you can notice that position, then you win double the points your opponent might win in the same kind of game, and you might win the match although your opponent might be of equal strength in backgammon without the cube

of course there is a bit more as alan explained : when the doubling cube is available you can also win gammons and backgammons .. a gammon (no men beared off by your opponent) is worth 2 points, without any doubling applied yet, a backgammon (opponent still has a men in the starting quarter or on the bar) is worth 3 points ... so a game which was doubled once and became a backgammon .. is worth 6 points :)

now the trick is to find out .. when you are winning a game .. wether you can turn it into a gammon (which will give you 2 points without doubling) or if you wont be able to do so .. if you double and your opponent declines you will only get 1 point .. but it is a certain point

the best way to learn it is to try it :)

alanback: wow! very well done!

Walter Montego: i like to play games for the games, although i like to chat as well :)

i start some games, and enjoy the playing and chatting, then the next day i come online to play a little .. but i only see games in which its my opponents turn to move .. i then join some more games so i have some to play .. etc. in the end i have enough games going on to keep me busy when i want to, but it requires more games than i could move in all at once .. so when my life gets more busy now and then i might get in a hurry which will hurt my chatting time .. but i will still enjoy the play :)

of course i can also join only fast moving tournaments, but i am slow sometimes as well (due to real life), so thats not a real option .. the only way i can see to give me enough games to make a move in when i want to is to join more :)

Walter Montego: we often continue the chat in the message box, the replies simply go to the games notification message :)

Walter Montego: *nod* i often repeat my invitation message as first message :)

i often chat, but less when i am in a hurry .. the last 2 weeks were quite busy irl so i had less time to play and did chat little, but will be more again later :)

i always wish 'have fun :)' and thats what the game should be about .. and what i really wish for my opponent (and myself) :)

if someone wishes me gl though i respond with u2, if someone wishes me 'good luck' then i respond with 'you too', etc :)

i dont think saying 'gg' or 'good game' or 'well played' at the end of a game when you won it is to rub it in .. its to tell the player who lost that he played a good game even though he lost, the dice might have been against him, even though he played well he still did lose due to some other factor, but that doesnt mean i cant tell him that i thought he played well :)

i often dont say 'gg' or anything in individual games in multigame matches though :)

i just got back from my holiday and would love to join the team tournaments of backgammon and hypergammon :)

are there any strong teams that could use me to join their squad ? :)

alanback: i would have hit .. but thats just because i like to send pieces to the bar (played too many ttt on dailygammon i guess :))

it leaves a single, but that can be used to fill the 5 hole later

grenv: hmm true .. the chance for the gammon (which is probably there if its a position in which the opponent would drop) .. would make it a 4 point game .. hmm .. that makes it even more difficult to decide :)

does anyone know what gnubg or any bots say ?

grenv & alanback: there certainly is a reason that i should double always right from the start ... i sometimes forget to double at a later stage .. i click on 'roll dice' automatically :)

i am always wondering when i am 3 points away from the end of the match (and my opponent only 1 and its not a crawford game) .. most of the time i wait and double when i am in a position with a big advantage .. and i think thats the right thing to do .. but sometimes i doubt :)

when i am more points behind it doesnt matter much i think .. but i double later because it feels like i am doing something about it and i like to keep my options open .. the bad thing is that i can forget to double .. and also that he might drop while he would have taken it from the start

so the only one which is clear to me is when i am 2 points from the end, and also when i am 3 points from the finish

skipinnz: hehe ... true .. but in that case i dont have to play the game anyway and might resign the whole match at the first move in the first game :)

Hrqls: I forgot to post my own thoughts .. i will do so now before i read the replies :)

if i am 2 points from the end i will double from the start as i want my opponent to accept the double, so that i only have to win 1 game and i dont want to forget to double :)

if i am 3 points from the end of the match then i will wait before i double .. i will most likely have to win 2 games to win the match, so if i arrive in a position where my opponent will decline the doubling, then i won 1 already. by doubling later in the game i hold the advantage of the cube .. if i get far behind then i will double anyway then i will double as well in the hope for a wonder :)

if i am more points behind .. then i am not sure :) .. i think its best to double early in even points from the end and later in odd points from the end ?

you need 2 games to win a match, your opponent only needs 1 game to win the match, the previous game was the crawford game so you are allowed to double again

is there ever a reason not to double at the first move ?

what if you need 3 games to win the match, your opponent only 1, and its not the crawford game ?
i sometimes wait until we are a bit further in the game to see if i can scare him to drop (or lure him to accept) .. but i never know it has any use ?

what if you need 4 games and your opponent only 1 ?

california man: play a match of several games (with cube) to make that chance to win even higher

play plenty of matches to even out the rare occurence in which you might lose to a lower rated player :)

Ok i had some time ;)

here is the top 10% in all positive backgammon variants (5 types)
the rating in nackgammon seems to be the biggest problem as quite some top players are in the top 10% of the other 4 variants, but not in the top 28 of nackgammon :)

Name       Back      Nack      Race      Crowded   Hyper     Average
alanback   2371   6  2041   3  2071   3  2049   5  2271   4  2161   4
Marfitalu  2274  24  1987   7  2015   6  1964  12  2183  28  2085  15
arpa       2238  46  2028   4  1981  10  2128   1  2190  24  2113  17
Hrqls      2280  18  1970  12  1970  14  2024   6  2163  46  2081  19
incognito  2214  75  1983   8  1976  13  1968  11  2196  20  2067  25
basplund   2205  81  2017   6  2010   7  2004   7  2153  59  2078  32

total           989       284       286	      242       604       481
top 10%    2188  99  1913  28  1925  29  1901  24  2153  60  2016  48

skipinnz: ok .. i guess my next list will be a list of people who are in the top % of all 5 positive backgammon types

i dont know when i will have time do it though .. i still have to do it by hand :)

skipinnz: lol :) raise your rankings a bit more ;)

(and maybe play 25 games of anti as well ;))

LionsLair: *nod* i almost had you added to it until i noticed that it was still provisional .. while the other variants werent .. funny that the variants are established but backgammon not :) .. i didnt expect that so you were on the list for a short time :)

Marfitalu: true .. and some players have their rank timed out (too long no finished game, red date behind ranking)

when i have some more time i will make a new list without anti, and maybe just the top 10% (or maybe a bit % more in case i am not in the 10% of all ;))

Walter Montego: its html
<i> is the starting italic tag </i> is the closing italic tag
<i>hello</i> would give hello

<pre> and </pre> will make a text fixed font

Walter Montego in fixed width would be

Walter Montego

which can be done with <pre>Walter Montego</pre>

Walter Montego: ok changed it .. i copied it from excel (in which i made the list) to notepad (to remove the borders) and then into the brainking box .. this copying added tabs between the columns .. i now replaced the tabs by spaces (2 or 3) by hand

to make the columns come out ok you will have to used a fixed width font (most of the times courier is used for that) .. that way the letters and numbers and spaces all have the same width .. otherwise the 'i' and 'm' and ' ' all have different widths .. to achieve this you can place the text between 'pre' tags .. just like 'i' tags make a text italic will the 'pre' tags make the font of fixed width

A new list of all players who are in the top 100 of all 6 gammon variants (sorted by average ranking) :

Name		Back      Nack      Anti      Race      Crowded   Hyper     Average	
Marfitalu	2274  24  1987	 7  2044   3  2015   6  1964  12  2183  27  2078  13
Pedro Martinez	2248  37  2019	 5  1938  10  2026   5  1873  37  2277   2  2064  16
Hrqls		2280  18  1970	12  1889  15  1970  15  2024   6  2163  46  2049  19
arpa		2270  48  2028	 4  1721  35  1981  10  2128   1  2190  23  2053  20
laszlo		2277  21  1867	55  1934  12  2070   3  1885  33  2254   7  2048  22
Incognito	2201  83  1983	 8  1974   7  1976  14  1968  11  2196  21  2050  24
basplund	2208  82  2018	 6  1991   5  2010   7  2004   7  2153  59  2064  28
TC		2256  30  1885	43  1937  11  1948  23  1983   8  2159  53  2028  28
chessik		2238  50  1851	65  1846  19  1824  86  1976  10  2174  39  1985  45
whikki		2189  98  1873	52  1852  16  1880  49  1846  49  2171  40  1969  51
Vikings		2200  84  1825	81  1964   8  1837  78  1798  70  2145  71  1962  65

i know it would have been better to take the top 10% or something like that, but that was way more work ;)

LionsLair: *nod* i even started to make a little program which would create those lists automagically .. but it got a bit stalled :)

the variants are definetly different
mostly they concentrate more on a specific aspect of ordinary bg

crowded and race more about building, race from the start, crowded from a specific point .. hyper is more about aggressive play and counting the chances to succeed or be hit .. nack is a bit more about the backgame than ordinary bg

but then again i am not a pro .. i only play this game for about 2 years .. and almost only on this site :)

Thad: in december we had a somewhat similar list.

i dont think the 'show subject' link worked at that time already .. and i am not sure if alanback was on this site for real already :)

anyway here are 2 posts with lists :
http://brainking.com/nl/Board?bc=26&ngi=448298
http://brainking.com/nl/Board?bc=26&ngi=448120

SafariGal: i wouldnt be surprised if he was #1 of one of them in the past though :)

Vikings: hehe .. he will just tumble down head first ;)

LionsLair: dont worry, i will be there with you :)

(maybe i already was in the past ? ;))

WatfordFC: i asked fencer and he told me that such tournaments (with entry fees (brains)) wont be removed over time .. they will just keep waiting until enough players are signed up

he will fix this so that the tournaments will be removed after time and when that happens then the players will get their entry fees returned to them