Gothic is not based on Janus at all! Just look at the castling differences. In Janus, in one direction the king leaps 4 squares, and in the other, just 3. This is a huge difference. In fact, Janus plays like a "colors-reversed" game because when the king ends up in the Knight's file on one side of the board, it is exactly like the opposite color does in chess.

Gothic is actually more closely related to Bird's chess in 1875 than Capablanca's chess from 1925.

See the paper at:

this link for a comparison between Bird, Capablanca, and Gothic.

Follow your heart...
Your intuition..
It will lead you .. In the right direction!!

Redsales,Januschess was invented in the seventies bei Werner Schöndorf+.There are no books or something about this variant. The Januschessfederation (www.janusschach.de) has his place in the western part of Germany, in Saarbrücken.The people play this game in the normal chessclubs.One time in the year there is the international Saar-Lor-Lux Open with Januschess,sometimes are grandmasters aboard,Kortschnoi for instance.Generally you can say the most German chessplayers play only standard chess.

What Mr. E.T. said about "bookworms" in regular chess is very true, but I don't agree with his whole article completely.

1) It's not only about openings, middlegame strategies/tactics/patterns and endgames can be studied and learned similar way too, little difference is there is some creativity required mostly in combining and taking advantage of those patterns.
2) But I don't see any real difference in Gothic chess here. Of course what Mr. Trice wrote is always true until some chess variant becomes more popular, not many masters games are available and the area is not covered by computer programs with huge books yet. But then, some point will be reached when all this starts again.
3) There were some tries to avoid book openings, let's mention Fisher Random Chess here. But different starting positions don't give always, in fact they give almost never, the same chances for both parties. Just look at differences between Capablanca and Gothic chess starting positions, with same pieces Capablanca setup leads to huge advantage for the starting player, as Mr.Trice described on the way to his patent for Gothic Chess.

So, I don't see any real solution here. Of course, one could always play some new chess variant where such book knowledge is not present yet. But again, looking at some top rated players and their repertoire can substitute the books absence or accessibility and give you some advantage over your opponents.
But I think, when you play for fun, without looking for some breakthroughs, money and fame, you can have it even against those "bookworms" here and there, you can sometimes suprise them as their memorized repertoire cannot cover the whole area. But as I mentioned in 1), it's not only about openings... And of course, even when you lose, you can gain something good, at least you had some brain training etc.
And those looking for fame, tourney wins, money, well the only way is to study and play and study and play again if you think it's worth it and/or you really like the game.

Just my opinion.

these are good points,and brings up the issue of resignations.Perhaps with matches between advanced player who use certain forms and strategies...an early resignation may be considered proper.But for an uneducated player like myself,using "homespun"strategies...it can be rather difficult to forsee the end result of a match.Granted....when the more seasoned player has eliminated the majority of the threatening pieces...odds are very much n favor of a win,but having played a great deal under this type of pressure...its entirely possible for a comeback.IMO

The generic reason for popularity of variants was not only to have a game where there was a chance against the masters but also to defeat program users. Once someone even hints they have access to program then their every victory is tainted whether they use one or not. I have webtv which can't use one but if I could I would when playing another admitted program user. Then it would be machine againt machine. Otherwise there is zero chance. But the best defense against the accusation is to point to your loss record which in my case is substantial and which would never happen if a program was used. I have played checkers against people who have played over the board in Las Vegas so I know how good they are but even they can only hope for a draw against most programs,,and only then if they play perfect checkers. Chess I know nothing about..still less about Gothic Chess.

of course the obvious responce is..theres always boosting :/

Some people need a boost to be tall enough to go on some rides at Disneyland. LOL.

I think people believe computers are infallible. This is far from the case. I think I am the only person to have defeated a World Champion calliber program in chess and checkers.

Programs do have weaknesses!

I am wondering if anyone is aware that International Master Mike Valvo played Deep Thought in a correspondence chess game and won! Deep Thought had 3 days to make each move. At times it could search 34 plies ahead (17 moves for each side to move).

And how did Valvo win? With a piece sacrifice!

Look at this game:

Deep Thought vs. Valvo and just try and grasp the complexity in the King's Gambit game.

Computers are strong at tactics, but not at strategy. Grandmaster Savielly Tartakower had a great quote:

Tactics is what you do when you have something to do. Strategy is what you do when there is nothing to do.

And therein lies the weakness of programs.

I know there is a pretty long list of people who have defeated the Chinook highest level and I did see Ed's name there. But it's still a tiny minority of those who have played it.

how many games of Gothic Chess have now been completed on BrainKing? Anyone know?

Go to "New Game", select Gothic, then "Show Rules". Last time I looked there was over 4000 I think.

WOW..over 4000 games....and not a single one played by pimple!!

great strides have been made since 1989, as demonstrated in the difference between the Kasparov matches with Deep Thought and Deep Blue. Also, now that checkers is on its way to being solved, fat chance beating Chinook again! I wonder if chess will ever be solved..

To solve chess, a computer the size of the universe is needed. There is a very famous paper on this, I forget where it is. There are more chess positions than atoms in the universe, so with "information density" such that a solution to one position could fit on one atom (an impossibility) you would need a universe to solve chess.

Statistics
White won 1931 (48.19 %)
Black won 1992 (49.71 %)
Draws 84 (2.09 %)

4007 total

how long have you been writing programs,Ed?

Strange how black has a better winning percentage in both gothic and regular chess.

I don`t think that chess can be "solved" anytime,but the chessprograms today are very much better than in 1989.It is only a question of (short) time that we have computer as worldchampion.

Computers aren't really important in any of these games as they are exactly that, games, reacreational activities for humans.

chess has really been replaced by electronic toys in the younger generation..it's too bad.

Friday, October 5, 1984 I got my first Macintosh. I had been programming on the Apple IIe before that. I rolled out The Sniper, my chess program, in 1986 when I was 19.

thats amazing.Funny how we choose without thinking,at a young age.I rebuilt my first 440mag when I was 16.Then it seemed like fun....now its still fun and a living:)

or will I be banned cause big deal has nothing to do with gothic ?
the only world class checkers program that existed was my auntie margarete ... ~*~

The Chinook progam had 2.5 billion positions in its RAM database when I played it. It searched about 170,000 positions per second.

Let's see you beat it Dano.

http://www.cs.ualberta.ca/~chinook is the link.

I don't play children's game unless to please auntie margarete ~*~

She was obviously a good teacher,Dano:)

I programmed an invincible box in 1965 ... no I had no
computers yet ... it was on an array of ten 128-pole switches
- that's actually enough, some boolean skills presumed ... ~*~

You are so full of crap Dano.

said the fox that could not climb the tree ... ~*~

Duh.

<>To solve chess, a computer the size of the universe is needed. There is a very famous >paper on this, I forget where it is. There are more chess positions than atoms in the >universe, so with "information density" such that a solution to one position could fit on >one atom (an impossibility) you would need a universe to solve chess.

This is wrong for 2 reasons:

A)You don't have to store the solution somewhere. You just have to find it and then play it.

B)It is possible that a set of strategic rules can be found which ensure a win for one of the players or a draw for both. If the correctness of these rules can be proven, it is not necessary to evaluate a large number of positions, to obtain the result of the game if both players play correctly. (Victor Allis)
For example at Connect 4 7x6, there are about 1.6·10^13 position possible so to store all these positions we would need 4 TB, but the game has been solved and the program that plays perfect Connect 4 7x6 is only 2.5 MB.

worldwide as educational toys later ... the Frankh Publishing House (aka Kosmos)
is one of the best examples, preferred by parents who didn't like their kids becoming
narrow-specialized idiots who spend their pity lives on boards making up history ... ~*~

Since i was away from Brainking as i was on a trip at the amazing amazon river (and lost all me games by time:-( ) who is this QuoUsque??

It is obviously Gothic Inventor but why did you changed your name? And what this QuoUsque means?

this time it was no hacker - he married a former KM and that's why the name change ~*~

I don't post much to boards as such. Can someone tell me is danoschek a boy or a girl + why does he speak and answer questions that ain't even being asked of him? Is he a retard?

since fake you applied that position is occupied, obviously ... ~*~

Quo usque is how the first oration of Cicero against Cataline starts out.

Quo usque tandem abutere patientia nostra, O Catalina!"

How long will you continue to abuse our patience, O Cataline?

Of note is that Cicero used "abutere" instead of "abuteris", which is 2 person, singular, future tense for "will you abuse". His change of the language was stylistic and caught the attention of his audience, and it added additional emphasis to his fantastic speech.

You should now know why I changed my name if you read through all of the trashy posts left by Danoschek, who is the biggest pain in the butt the world has ever known.

Quo usque tandem abutere patientia nostra, O Danoschek!"

In 63 BC Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BC), orator, statesman and patriot, attained the rank of consul and in that capacity exposed to the Roman senate the plot of Lucius Sergius Catilina (approx. 108-62 BC) and his friends to overthrow the government of Rome.

It came about in this way. Catiline, who was running for consulship a second time after having lost the first time around, tried to ensure his victory by resorting to blatant and excessive bribery. Cicero in self-righteous indignation issued a law prohibiting shenanigans of this kind. It was obvious to all that the law was directed specifically at Catiline. Catiline, in turn, conspires with some of his cronies to murder Cicero and the key men of the senate on the day of the election. Cicero discovered the plan and postponed the election to give the senate time to discuss the attempted coup de tat.

The day after the election was supposed to be held, Cicero addressed the senate on the matter and Catiline's reaction was immediate and violent. In response to Catiline's behavior, the senate issued a senatus consultum ultimum, a kind of declaration of martial law invoked whenever the senate and the Roman Republic were in imminent danger from treason or sedition. Ordinary law was suspended and Cicero, as consul, was invested with absolute power.

When the election was finally held, Catiline lost again. Anticipating the bad news, the conspirators had already begun to assemble an army, made up mostly of Sulla's veteran soldiers. The nucleus of conspirators was also joined by senators whose profligate tastes left them permanently without funds. The plan was to initiate an insurrection in all of Italy, put Rome to the torch and to kill as many senators as they could.

Through some crafty moves of his own, Cicero knew exactly what was being planned. On November 8 Cicero called for a meeting of the senate in the Temple of Jupiter in the Capitol, which was used for this purpose only when great danger threatened. Catiline had the temerity to attend also. It was then that Cicero delivered directly to Catiline his famous:


Quo usque tandem abutere, patientia nostra, O Catalina? Quam diu etiam furor iste tuus nos eludet? Quem ad finem sese effrenata iactabit audacia? Nihilne te nocturnum praesidium Palati, nihil urbis vigiliae, nihil timor populi, nihil concursus bonorum omnium, nihil hic munitissimus habendi senatus locus, nihil horum ora voltusque moverunt? Patere tua consilia non sentis, constrictam iam horum omnium scientia teneri coniurationem tuam non vides? Quid proxima, quid superiore nocte egeris, ubi fueris, quos convocaveris, quid consilii ceperis, quem nostrum ignorare arbitraris? O tempora, o mores! Senatus haec intellegit. Consul videt; hic tamen vivit. Vivit? immo vero etiam in senatum venit, fit publici consilii particeps, notat et designat oculis ad caedem unum quemque nostrum. Nos autem fortes viri satis facere rei publicae videmur, si istius furorem ac tela vitemus. Ad mortem te, Catilina, duci iussu consulis iam pridem oportebat, in te conferri pestem, quam tu in nos [omnes iam diu] machinaris. An vero vir amplissumus, P. Scipio, pontifex maximus, Ti. Gracchum mediocriter labefactantem statum rei publicae privatus interfecit; Catilinam orbem terrae caede atque incendiis vastare cupientem nos consules perferemus? Nam illa nimis antiqua praetereo, quod C. Servilius Ahala Sp. Maelium novis rebus studentem manu sua occidit.

Fuit, fuit ista quondam in hac re publica virtus, ut viri fortes acrioribus suppliciis civem perniciosum quam acerbissimum hostem coercerent. Habemus senatus consultum in te, Catilina, vehemens et grave, non deest rei publicae consilium neque auctoritas huius ordinis; nos, nos, dico aperte, consules desumus. Decrevit quondam senatus, ut L. Opimius consul videret, ne quid res publica detrimenti caperet; nox nulla intercessit; interfectus est propter quasdam seditionum suspiciones C. Gracchus, clarissimo patre, avo, maioribus, occisus est cum liberis M. Fulvius consularis. Simili senatus consulto C. Mario et L. Valerio consulibus est permissa res publica; num unum diem postea L. Saturninum tribunum pl. et C. Servilium praetorem mors ac rei publicae poena remorata est? At [vero] nos vicesimum iam diem patimur hebescere aciem horum auctoritatis. Habemus enim huiusce modi senatus consultum, verum inclusum in tabulis tamquam in vagina reconditum, quo ex senatus consulto confestim te interfectum esse, Catilina, convenit. Vivis, et vivis non ad deponendam, sed ad confirmandam audaciam. Cupio, patres conscripti, me esse clementem, cupio in tantis rei publicae periculis me non dissolutum videri, sed iam me ipse inertiae nequitiaeque condemno. Castra sunt in Italia contra populum Romanum in Etruriae faucibus conlocata, crescit in dies singulos hostium numerus; eorum autem castrorum imperatorem ducemque hostium intra moenia atque adeo in senatu videmus intestinam aliquam cotidie perniciem rei publicae molientem. Si te iam, Catilina, comprehendi, si interfici iussero, credo, erit verendum mihi, ne non potius hoc omnes boni serius a me quam quisquam crudelius factum esse dicat. Verum ego hoc, quod iam pridem factum esse oportuit, certa de causa nondum adducor ut faciam. Tum denique interficiere, cum iam nemo tam inprobus, tam perditus, tam tui similis inveniri poterit, qui id non iure factum esse fateatur. Quamdiu quisquam erit, qui te defendere audeat, vives, et vives ita, ut [nunc] vivis. multis meis et firmis praesidiis obsessus, ne commovere te contra rem publicam possis. Multorum te etiam oculi et aures non sentientem, sicut adhuc fecerunt, speculabuntur atque custodient.

Etenim quid est, Catilina, quod iam amplius expectes, si neque nox tenebris obscurare coeptus nefarios nec privata domus parietibus continere voces coniurationis tuae potest, si illustrantur, si erumpunt omnia? Muta iam istam mentem, mihi crede, obliviscere caedis atque incendiorum.

Gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres - please take note that Caesar doesn't say
'Gallia omnis' which would be 'whole Gallia', but he means "Gallia is, in her entirety"
like 'E.T. the extra-testicle from outerspace' in his goofdom, not just the goofed E.T. ~*~

I'd have different preferences, would elaborate indeed, you should know best.
I happen to prefer it short and painful - precisely spotted and ingeniously termed.
now better shush - that was just the socket of pandora's box - think eventually ...
Indeed it is NOT all of Gaul - are you hard of reading ?? Yes it is Gallia, but in her
mythic entity based on tribal connections, and surely NOT France - Helvetii are from Switzerland, you randomly arranged sparepart storage of history, bare of any clue ... ~*~

REM:
you may figure that he babbled back senselessly and noticed later how deleteworthy he was.

maybe the board becomes less noisy and perhaps even public again
if you finally avoid screwing up periodicly - isn't good for gothic biz
- btw - since the quality of the products speaks for itself neither ... ~*~

<great literal perspectives, those virtues of your socalled life
- maybe I should call a few gurlz-webclubs to put an independent vote ... >:)
but that's for you as neutrum by appearance probably minor valuable ... ~*~

the verbal output after you tried to cheat there too ? fancy. suggestions to improve ? ~*~

LMAO:)

be mild with E.T. ... - and outerspace - c'mon we knew that b4 ... ~*~ :p

yes I saw your ferrari testosterosso still on the parking ... *sigh*
( always these silly and desperated attempts to balance beyond )
so I'm actually surprised that your post is almost close to being a challenge of culture ~*~

you're talking of gothic chess finally - I SEE !
nope ain't got no master dano, how could it be ?
just kicked all the aces and kings that you made, means nothing ~*~

*Only the real cutie knows I am talking to him* wonder if he will see this post! ;)

Having fun boyz~!?

so glad the board comes back to its topic *smiles* - your
personality problems are minor interesting, with all probably not even due respect ... ~*~