<>"And even better is when a mate in X problem, has equal material on both sides or the >side that is about to mate is inferior in the material"

>No,this is not imortant - most chessproblems have unequal material! Important is the >economic image of a special theme with a surprising "key move" and checkmates in >different variants.

Neither this is important. Nothing is more important from something else. It is only a matter of taste. I'm attracted more by positions with mate in X, in which the material is equal or the side that is about to mate is behind in material. You like more positions which seem "good to the eyes" and they are pretty, other persons may like something else ...etc.

>We speak here about a chessproblem,which is composed and not about a position of a >played game.

It doesn't really matter. I don't see any difference. The only thing we should speak is about legal positions.

is that why you like to beat people with programs such as wzebra in Othello?
They are using legal positions but yet it is also cheating on your part

But sure it is a difference if we look at a position of a played game or at a composed problem.Btw at (fairy) chessproblems are also sometimes illegal positions allowed.The taste is the one side and the rules and the criterions of a good chessproblem are the other side.
These are defined by the federations for chessproblems - for instance "Die Schwalbe"- which have defined the standards for good and for bad problems.

To LJ:Be careful with the word "cheating"!Where have you read what is forbidden and what allowed here in BK?

morally it is cheating..but evidently allowed.

I do it without proggies or reading about others.. I play it and use the skills I learn through my errors in past games..

My opinion to anyone who uses programs or other forms to help their game is cheating!

At least when I lose my games of gothic.. I know what I shouldn't do in the next game..

<>is that why you like to beat people with programs such as wzebra in Othello?

What do you mean exactly? I'm clever enough so that i would not feel any satisfaction by beating someone at othello 8x8 (reversi 8x8), with the help of a computer. I'm also clever enough that i don't care if i will win 100% of my games at reversi 8x8.
Since the game of reversi 8x8 is too tricky and compicated for me to play, i used a program (written by me) to play and thinking that all other opponents are doing the same. After a game i said to Steve(or someone else?) that i used a program to play. Do you think a "cheater" admits this so easy? And i've asked to all the people played with me and lost, to ask Fencer to delete all their loses with me.

>They are using legal positions but yet it is also cheating on your part

What do you mean???

on BK, everything is allowed simply bc there is no way to police our moves. CM1000 admits he uses a prog, so I have no problem with him. I don't see where he derives his satisfaction, but it's ultimately his choice. Recently I read a tragic story about a top -100 GM in chess that was receiving moves from a computer through a device that was ostensibly a hearing aid. The only reason he was caught is that there was audible feedback on the device. I suppose next that the world championship contenders will have to be subjected to a body cavity search and "bug" screening! Anyway, after awhile you can tell who plays with a prog and who doesn't, so that'll help you decide who to play. I have found that most programs in the chess variants are easy to beat, so that's a good place to play.

Programs are easy to beat. See?

Hosing the computer

that you could always use ONE line. I suggest to improve the opening book. ~*~ :D

I have tried to understand why some players would use a computer to make their moves. I can think of at least three cases, two of which are confirmed, in which players were using computer programs to beat me. I think that some of these players try to win by themselves at first. After realizing that other players are better their ego suffers badly and psychologically they give up on winning on their own. They start using a program and they get some satisfaction in seeing other players struggle while all they do is feed moves into a program. Their ego breaks down, so they lose perspective of what fair play is. I know my ratings are quite low, but they are my ratings, not Chessmaster 9000, or Gothic vortex, or some other program's ratings. Computer programs have a place. You can use them to practice at home, or to analyze positions after a game is completed, but using the program to defeat an opponent in the middle of a game is cheating.

I agree with this :o)
Chessmaster1000 mentioned my game with him of reversi (I know offtopic for the board but not for the conversation) He done exactly what you just said, he only told me because I told him I could tell he was using a programme. he then owned up that he realised he couldnt win against me, so started using his programme so as to win the game. But I could tell it was used before he said it was. But it backs up your theory Cerebo that its an ego thing and can not lose.
My bkr goes up and down in all games, this shows its real and no programmes used, and they are my own and genuine bkr :o)

Stevie, you got it. I think anyone who is really interested in playing here has to do it for the love of the game, ultimately. It sounds hokey but that's all we have in the end.

Are you sure? White moves N D4-F5, then I say Black can move K E4-D5. White's next move must be a checkmate. What is the move? Least ways, I haven't figured it out yet. Could you let me know?

Ah, you did let me know. C C2-C3. Yep, that'll do it. Thanks

I hate when i say that A+1=B and people translate/understand it as A+1<>B.
I said that i USED a program to play REVERSI 8x8 and Redsales believes that: "CM1000 admits he USES a program". USED is different from USES. And also a program on REVERSI, is different to a program EVERYWHERE.

Anyway now i've said i was using a program at
Reversi 8x8(although not deliberately), i understand it's too difficult for people to believe anything i'm saying about anything. It's their choice and anyway it doesn't matter.....

<>but using the program to defeat an opponent in the middle of a game is cheating.

I agree on what are you saying but the above is wrong. It is cheating not only if you use a program for playing the middlegame, but also for the opening and endgame.

It is cheating if you look the opening book of Fritz for example to play your opening moves, and it is also cheating if you will use endgame tablebases to play an endgame perfectly.

Redsales speaks about Chess variants and not Chess.

ok, CM1000, so you mean you once (HAD BEEN using, I know English is not your first language, I was interpreting it the only natural way a native English speaker like myself would, no hard feelings) a program to play reversi and now you are not? Like I said, I do not have a problem with that as you are not the first nor will be the last to "Zentaur" on this site. What about our gothic chess games, was I playing you or something else? I am curious. I will believe your answer.

And you are right about cheating with endgames and opening books by comparison to OTB games.

<>ok, CM1000, so you mean you once (HAD BEEN using, I know English is not your first >language, I was interpreting it the only natural way a native English speaker like myself >would, no hard feelings) a program to play reversi and now you are not?

Yes that is what i mean. Actually as i am a very pedantic person:) i take every word as a fact, just why i reacted this way. Sorry if any of my statements made you feel somewhat strange:-)

>Like I said, I do not have a problem with that as you are not the first nor will be the last to >"Zentaur" on this site. What about our gothic chess games, was I playing you or something >else? I am curious. I will believe your answer.

No, i have never used Gothic Vortex (since this is the only available Gothic Chess program there is(perhaps not?)) against anyone.

Actually it isn't even working on my computer but even if it worked i would not use it of course. I say of course because it's obvious that this would be not fair. You will say then why i used my program for helping me at Reversi 8x8?

Well, i find Reversi 8x8 a game that humans can't play it well and i mean without making at least one bad move every 5 moves (That is because i (and generally we) can't use my(our) logic to play Reversi at a high level as i(we) can't find any patterns that show when a position is good or not and calculating many plies ahead is impossible, since the turning checkers don't allow our brain to do that(i know that having the corners and especially the 4 edges it's good but that it is not enough for playing good)), and since i thought that all people at this site use a computer for playing this "crazy"(for the above reasons) game, i used it too.

"I know it's a bit difficult to read the above because of the many parenthesis, but to have a general view you should ignore all the parenthesis and the statements between them."

ok, well tell you what! I am pretty bad at reversi, why don't we play a game. I'm playing line4 and tablut for dummies and that's about my level!

I still don't get the point. Why use them? I don't want to play a machine, I want to play a person. If I'm going to play against a machine, it should be clearly known to me before the game starts and I willingly consent to it. Sneaking one in is cheating or something else. It's definitely not sporting or fair.
Dark Chess is probably the least machine played game, plus it's hard to get outside help from other people because of the darkness.
Seeing how a person can take atleast a day for each move, I really don't see much need for a machine to make the moves. Just being lazy, eh? I ain't buying it for Reversi, Chessmaster1000. You don't need the machine to make your moves for you. When it's your turn, make a move. If it's a bad one, then too bad. If it's a good one, you earned it. Rationalizing away the reasons for your using the machine doesn't negate the fact that you're using a machine to play your games.

I imagine in ten or less years from now, computers will probably play these games so good that they'll stop being much use in having tournaments for them. Then the rest of us regular folks can just play them for fun like they're supposed to be.

we have proof that CM1000 used a program AFTER he said he wouldn't. There is no validity in anything he says to try and cover up the fact and I am certain people see this.
I even have copies of dialogue he used in a game against someone else to try and make it look like he was moving himself but in fact was using a program. It was very funny.

Chessmaster 1000 is the only person here on BrainKing that has sent me games he played against Gothic Vortex where he absolutely slaughtered the program.

Vortex would think it was ahead by 200-300 points, when his slow, gradual pressure would overpower it from too far away. Just for curiosity, I compiled a version that would search until I interrupted it. Even searching for 3 days, Vortex thought it was winning, yet as I played Chessmaster 1000's moves, his moves would win.

I say this because very few people on this site can win in this fashion. Usually a win against Vortex can be cured by a longer time setting or something that was missing in the knowledge.

This was not the case.

Even in my own wins against Vortex, the scores are not so far off. CM1000 would let his pawns get captured only to occupy a huge hole with his pieces and attack like crazy some 15 moves (30 plies) later.

I know the names of every person on here who purchased a Gothic Vortex license, and he is not one of them.

i don't doubt his gothic ability, i had a rough time in our games before he timed out. But it begs the question as to why he would crush a computer in goth while using one in reversi. As an aside, I have found one of the games where I beat vortex and will send it. It definitely wasn't a crush though.

Last time I checked, this was the Gothic Chess Board, not the Persecute Reversi Program Users Board.

due to server space limitations, fencer combined the two. This board has been used for many purposes other than gothic chess, including gambling, trash talking, rekindling old amours, and last but not least, persecuting Danoschek, Ed Trice, ughiabu etc...in no particular order of course.

Ah, so to deflect one's own fault, one should mention the faults of others.

if you read my posts, you'll see I never had a problem with CM1000 using a program. But your example is apropos, castigating others for persecuting CM1000 when i recall similar actions taken towards dano.

My debate with Dano directly concerned Gothic Chess, where you have been?

1. He claims to be better than me after having lost 3 games.

2. He says I won't play him because he "knows" he can beat me, so I invited him to a game, which he declined.

3. He says Gothic Vortex sucks, then he said he declined playing me until I give him a free Gothic Chess license.

Get with the program!

The debate with CM1000 and Reverse is totally orthogonal to any such ongoing discussion about a worm from Germany named Danochicken.

I am wondering how many people here have downloaded the program.

Maybe we should have a "best win against Vortex" contest. The best game gets a free license for the program.

So, post your wins, and annotate them. Best one gets a prize (and please, no games on the very lowest settings)

<>we have proof that CM1000 used a program AFTER he said he wouldn't. There is no >validity in anything he says to try and cover up the fact and I am certain people see this.

Where do you see the proof? Sorry but i only have to say that you are awful at mathematical logic.

>I even have copies of dialogue he used in a game against someone else to try and make it >look like he was moving himself but in fact was using a program. It was very funny.

Give the dialogue. Give anything you want. I don't try to cover the fact. I was the one that admitted it immediately and never played again with a program at Reversi 8x8. If you can't accept the fact that i was not doing it for BKR points, then OK. I understand it is difficult to accept such a thing.

will you lie whenever your lips are moving and make up facts to your needs, faker ?
It is yet visible what I said, despite of your ludicrous spamming to bury reality. I have
corrected your rabies fantasies on 3 boards, it was the bk gothic license I talked of. ~*~

http://www.GothicChess.org/invite.gif

http://www.GothicChess.org/declined.gif


danochicken liar 1

danochicken liar 2

awwww you grand chevallier, you were so generous to give Harley
the black stones ... how brave !! next message then covering your
request for yet another nice footstep pattern of mine on your sore butt ... ~*~

as the fiddler already starts to delete the foam that he separates regulary. ~*~

[laughs at danochicken]

gives a hint why you have no children,
and why you have to fear the friendly men in white jackets ... ~*~

Danochicken, want to play a game of Gothic Chess?

rabid wildboar, are you hard of reading ? ~*~

A straight forward game of Gothic. What could go wrong? Go wrong go wrong go wrong LOL

sometimes casts some speech impediment. You will get over it. ~*~

still the bugreport remains ignored - as the topic also ...

1. August 2004, 18:46:40


your diffuse puberty rituals of fixative proving whatever are as low as your
board-habits - why not answer to the topic questions here ? btw calling a cheater
a cheater is a definition, it's no insult either, so you better don't demand reports.
Although you have not apologized for your poor performance silly me presumed a courtesy
of leaving it behind. Of course we know why indeed you sulk about going away - it's easy chicken out from true competition. I for my part won't feel pelled to having hectic games with running rabbits - no game until licence is renewed. Due to my precious reward as serious
player I prefer to brag only with complete games - if feeling urged to such, anyway ... ~*~ 0:)

What the hell is a "diffuse puberty ritual" anyway?

And what does "fixative proving" mean?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound? It is like trying to argue with a monkey that has access to a typewriter.

a rabid wildboar without any language control ? eh bleh ~*~

How about renaming this board to "The VENTING Board"! Come here and vent on anything!

certain ppl uncapable of controlling their periodic outbursts belong on approval period ~*~

Is there a mod around anywhere???

It's like Barney and friends in here! LOL

was updated in the cave :D ... ~*~

Is walter online?