Chess:
White won 20172 (46.93 %)
Black won 20990 (48.83 %)
Draws 1817 (4.22 %)

The stats on this site do not generally represent the feeling about black vs white. Here black wins more than white, which is very unusual for chess.

Who ever wanted to know, which Gothic Chess program might be the strongest, actually could watch a long-time fight between Gothic Vortex Gold and SMIRF Beta. Average thinking times are floating between 1/2 hour and several hours, thus the playing level is of course impressing. It is also interesting to see the evaluation functions differ sometimes more than one Pawn unit. You will find more on this and also interesting comments at: http://s13.invisionfree.com/Gothic_Chess_Forum/index.php

Statistics
White won 1048 (48.92 %)
Black won 1035 (48.31 %)
------Draws 59 (2.75 %)

This supports, but doesn't prove, my belief that the game is equal for either side. There's always play two games with each player having each color to level it out too. Even in single game matches the results on this site look pretty even to me.

Pythagoras: This is what I agreed with with from Sumerian:

"Those statements simply reflect the absence of opening knowledge, thus merely prove to be caused by psychological effects without a real base."

Take what you disagreed with and quailfy it with what I quoted.

mahavrilla:
S-1:That seems like an accurate statement.
S-2:Janus seems way too complicated for its value on the first move to be decided at this point.


You agree with the Sumerian's statement of having white a 3/10 Pawn starting advantage(S-1) AND you believe that Janus is way too complicated for any speculation about the starting advantage of any player(S-2)????????????????

That's crazy........!

Sumerian: That seems like an accurate statement. Janus seems way too complicated for its value on the first move to be decided at this point. But I was hoping their claims would go beyond the "feels" like black is better to a respected statistical statement. Ed did a good job arguing his case on the piece placement of Bird's chess, and why his suggested improvement works better. I was hoping for something along those lines.

In contrast to claimed unspecified advantages of Black within Janus Chess I am convinced of White being about 3/10 Pawn units ahead in its beginning. Similar statements have been done by chess players first being faced to some Chess960 / FRC starting arrays. Those statements simply reflect the absence of opening knowledge, thus merely prove to be caused by psychological effects without a real base.

For Chess there is the general idea that black has to fight (not hard) to gain equity first and then if he succeeds he can look for a win.
For Gothic Chess the same is not valid and both sides seems to have equal chances.
For Janus Ed Trice mainly and i -in a much smaller degree- have the opinion that Black has "something" better. I don't know what is this "something" but i can feel it.....Black seems to me, to have more attacking chances.....

I am curious on this idea that Black has an advantage in Janus. Does he also have an advantage in Gothic chess? And if only in Janus, why not in Gothic? Are these claims supported by several statistics, or between 2 people, which could be explained away simply by style. Funny enough, I know of a chess player who always loses as white but wins as black!, because she studies only black defenses. :-) In short, how do GMs fair with black gainst white in Janus. I know that Leko, Korchnoi, and Yuspov play Janus. Does anybody know how to retrieve their results? I would think that the best way to know the answer to this question is to set up 2 powerful chess engines against each other. Interestingly, this problem of the first move lives in classical chess too, and is only solved by having the players play 2 game matches. This will always solve the problem if there were ever an instance of the first move proving to be advantagous or not.

Yep........
I thought it would be more than obvious.....

Pythagoras: Your word use, grammar, punctuation, and smilies, are very like Chessmaster1000.

Grim Reaper: I would like to believe that never having suffered a loss in Janus while collecting a fair number of wins allows me the freedom to speculate that the game might be inherently easier to play from Black's perspective.

The above is much different from the:

White is also at a disadvantage by moving first in Janus

My opinion about Janus, although as like you, i dislike this game as it is too diagonal, is that it is well balanced, even though i have the same feeling -in a much lower degree- that black has something better.....

or evidence that the moon is NOT made out of green cheese.
Can you give me an evidence for the opposite....?
Only if you transfer me into the moon you can convince me and this is quite difficult.....

I am on the live site waiting for a game of Gothic if anyone wants to play.

And congrats to Andreas for winning a blitz game in 10 with 12 second increment against me yesterday. I reached what I thought was a very comfortable position, and the tide of the game turned almost instantly. It was a bizarre sort of game, I will post it when the webmaster emails it to me and I annotate it.

Pythagoras:

Well, please send me your proof of the Pythagorrean Theorem, or evidence that the moon is NOT made out of green cheese.

What I stated was a belief based on my experience and I never offered anything more than that.

Mely holds close to an International Master title in chess, and is well-versed in Janus Chess also. I was down a Queen + 3 pawns vs. the Archbishop (Janus) while playing white because Black was able to run me out of good moves. It was like distance zugzwang. I was able to dispose of those pawns to get the draw, a difficult concept to realize. And, I was able to win with Black against Mely, again, a very tough competitor.

I would like to believe that never having suffered a loss in Janus while collecting a fair number of wins allows me the freedom to speculate that the game might be inherently easier to play from Black's perspective.

Grim Reaper:White is also at a disadvantage by moving first in Janus.

No i don't think so. I or you or anyone can not prove anything of cource, and i understand that this was just your opinion, your feeling, about the game, but the fact you feel that you have troubles with white while with black not, doesn't prove nothing.........

White is also at a disadvantage by moving first in Janus. I had a hard time drawing Mely as white, and a much easier time winning with Black. Tough to explain, but I just think white is practically in zugzwang in the beginning of the game.

mahavrilla:
Castling is different. It is done symmetrically. The a-side castling is written as O-O instead of O-O-O. As far as I know there are no patents on Janus. The representation of the Archbishop is replaced by a pointed dog, called Janus.

I happen to like both of these games. Does anybody know what the main difference is between these 2 games besides the chanceller in Gothic? Does anybody think one better than the other for any reason?

I was wondering if anybody wanted to play live tonight there? If so, just go there. I am on board one.

If you do sign up, let us know what your name is on the site. Also, players are meeting at the discussion board to post game requests here:

http://s13.invisionfree.com/Gothic_Chess_Forum/index.php?showforum=8


And the first person who wins a game against me on a Tuesday gets $50, but so far, no winners (although I had as little as 2 seconds on my clock when I checkmated one player.)

pawnme: Or, even more directly, at:

www.GothicChessLive.com

It is no longer available here, but you can go to Gothicchess.org to play.

WhiteTower: ok. By the way, is it possible to play Gothic chess? I would like to try a couple of games

naughtypawn: After successful lobbying (not really!) it does no longer refer to a movie title but to a Cuban chess player (except for the rest of it, which, I suppose, was the trade-off, thanks to Grim Reaper!)

why? I don´t understand the joke very well. English is not my mogher tongue...

naughtypawn: Well, the Chess Variants (10x8) headline is now real-world-compliant :)

WhiteTower: I can´t believe what I read... A typo is a typo. I wrote Cablanca; it was a mistake without importance. I really know how Capablanca is written better than people that don´t speak Spanish...

OK, if you gonna mess up Capablanca, whah not turn da others into Janes Chess and Gotham Chess as well?

Let's get serious, it's Capablanca Random Chess, there's no S in Capablanca.

A sigh is just a sigh, a typo just a typo ...

WhisperzQ: Type it again, Whisperz.

Pythagoras et al: How's that?

WhiteTower: Nope, but I am one step closer to bringing Fischer together with Kasparov to play Gothic Chess.

http://www.gothicchess.org/fischer_kasparov.html

Grim Reaper: And actually, you invented Gotham Chess, right? :)

We would have to change the name of this place to "Rick's"

:)

Pythagoras: Well spotted!

I don't know if you moderators are fans of Ingrid Bergman, but it would be better if you called the game Capablanca Random Chess.........

Interesting........

Sumerian:

I added another topic area where you can see the current position.

http://s13.invisionfree.com/Gothic_Chess_Forum/index.php?showtopic=25

The game could be seen (partially commented) at http://s13.invisionfree.com/Gothic_Chess_Forum/index.php . SMIRF Beta 1.1.3 will use about 1/2 hour for its answers, because I need my computer for more than only playing.

Hello Fencer,

I hope there is a way to save Gothic Chess for your site. For me it is the best game I know.
And I hope for more traffic on the live Site, it is wonderful to play this game live.
God bless you all

rabbitoid: I think after 48 hours, the hardware difference is negligible. The branching factor is such that almost any machine will get you to the same nominal depth. Say with all of your pruning tricks your software branching factor is 4, down from about 50 in the actual game.

That means if ply X completes at time T, ply X+1 requires 4T, X+2 needs 16T, X+3 64T, etc.

If the speed differential was a factor of 4, meaning one machine was 4 times faster than the other, even after 2 days, the faster machine would only outsearch the other by 1 ply.

I am sure Reinhard's hardware is within a factor or 2 of mine, maybe even less. I have a 2.8 GHz Pentium IV.

Grim Reaper: would be interresting to watch, but to have a fair comparison of softwares you should run both on the same hardware.

I have proposed a friendly 2-game match with S.M.I.R.F. here:

http://s13.invisionfree.com/Gothic_Chess_Forum/index.php?showtopic=23

Time controls are 1 move in 48 hours (which is not going to be rigidly enforced if Reinhard needs extra time.)

If Reinhard accepts, diagrams will be supplied there so everyone can see the most current position.

I think this will be an interesting match. I would like to know how many nodes S.M.I.R.F. explores each move, what depth it reaches, and its evaluation.

What do you say Reinhard?

naughtypawn:

Do you know how many people have paid to play a game of Gothic Chess, in the whole wide world, because of the patent?

0.

The patent has no bearing on an individual, a tournament director, or anyone else interested in playing the game.

It just prevents a company from saying "Wow there are 40,000 Gothic Chess players out there, let's capitalize on their hard work and make our own game and sell it."

You pay royalties for intellectual property every time you buy a DVD, download music (legally), or buy certain pots and pans.

Those who talk about having to pay to play Gothic Chess have absolutely no understanding of patent law. The only thing you need to do is buy a set, and you would have to pay for that anyway.

Sumerian: I agree with you.

naughtypawn:

Seeing the discussion here on which would be better, GC or CRC, I think it is going into a wrong direction.

As far as I know GC has been created to have a very balanced 10x8 starting array based on the Capablanca piece set. CRC is randomazing starting arrays among a lot of possibilities. GC targets to be played by human beings, CRC was invented primarily to create a new testing field for computer chess programs. GC is about to organize experiences into an opening library, CRC is just about to avoid such looking up knowledge to be reproduced.

Therefore I regard CRC to need more sophisticated players, mainly because of the very different starting arrays.

It would be very preferable to have both, GC and CRC, at this site. But I have to agree that questions around patented games could be frustrating, even when such patents normally are not applicatable at all e. g. in the EU.

Chessmaster1000: Yes, you are right. Gothic Chess is a good game, but a game is not only the board and pieces. There are other things that influence the game. Imagine that I launch a standard chess club and I have to pay money to FIDE (or to the national organization) for the right to play in it... This restrict the possibilites of standard chess and, of course the possibilities of my club, and it would be horrible, in my opinion. Anyway, I prefer playing both games (CRC and Gothic Chess), but I think it is not possible...

For first you should know that everything i say, don't mean to offend anyone. It is just my opinion although many times seems offensive, but never is......
And second i don't take into consideration the patent thing, at all........I see only the game itself.......

As for the patent thing: Since you have to obey other laws at life -laws that other have voted- you have to obey the patent thing law too.....I don't see why this is bad.........

Chessmaster1000: Well, first of all, I can see the difference between a horse and a donkey. I am not stupid. Second, I believe that CRC is better because of a simple reason: the patent. I am a chess tournament director and I don´t have to ask for permission when I launch a tornament... Anyway, this is an opinion, like yours. I didn´t pretend to offend... I just wanted to write my point of view.

So i guess you would not see the difference between a horse and a donkey too......
I don't say that Gothic Chess is better from CRC (i believe that it is but this is too subjective), i only say that there is a huge difference between these two games........!