danoschek: [post edited WQ] I wonder why though? How'd draws ever come to be seen as an acceptable outcome for a game? If the game is truly that evenly played, then a draw it is. I think allowing players to agree to draws while there's still a chance for one side or the other to win is wrong. If anything, I'd require more moves to be made before an agreed to draw is allowed, but I think eliminating them except for the ways I said earlier plus stalemates would be the way to lower the number of draws without changing the rules of Chess.

I see that you have draws in Backgammon and Pente. How is it possible to have a draw in either one of those games when it can't happen if played by the rules that I know?

Montego: [post deleted WQ]~*~

I think draws that are agreed to should not be allowed, period. The only allowed draws should be where it could be shown that neither side can win, like insufficient force, perpetual check, repeated positions, or by stating one's line of play and the tournament director agreeing to it being a draw. Agreed to draws just make it easy for both players and allow shenanigans to happen in tournaments by letting some players advance to the next round without having to really play some games.
Yeah, I've heard the bit about they'd be wasting their time by playing it out, but I sure don't see the point in playing if you're not even going to play the game in the first place.

Making this simple change would certainly lower the number of draws in Chess that I hear people complaining about all the time, and it wouldn't change Chess in any of the ways as I've seen some other ideas for changing the draw rules would.

EdTrice: white gives up a piece that is never recovered again, something computers usually do not do.

In this case many (the 40% of around 40 programs i tried) engines play your move in a time between 20 seconds to 2 minutes, with a positive score. Especially Deep-Junior 8.ZX and Junior 7 are very happy with the position after the double sacrifice.......

After 17...Kh8 there is still a mate in 51 moves.

I don't know if you are joking here, but no program or human can announce such a thing correctly, from this position.......
My opinion is that it's not only wrong that there is a mate for white, but that white is not even winning. Although i see an advantage for white it is definitely not an easy task to win..........

How will you continue in my 3 lines after Kh8.....? Do you have any refutation?

No!
After 18...Ra5? we have 19.Rxe6! fxe6 20.Ne5!
and white is winning big..........

18...Nh5? seems a mistake for me.Perhaps better 18... Ra5!?
For example 19. Ne5 Nh7 20. Re3 and after 20..Bh4!? Shredder 9 gives a small advantage for Black.(-0,60)

EdTrice: Remember what I wrote: "But without using comuter aid?"
That was a question - not a general ascertainment!
By the way: My question was a leading question.

I am not a "computer expert" in chess programs. I do not know what is passible to search with a program. Maybe someone can tell me.

For all of you who think you can lob such general comments as "this was a computer game", let me point out a few things.

1. Since so many people were making snide comments about the Double Muzio game posted on here, where there is a sacrifice of first a knight and then a bishop, I decided I would go after Alex and try to win a game using the same theme: offering the sacrifice of a knight and bishop, just to emphasize the point. I mentioned this to ChessCarpenter long ago.

2. Look at the position here:

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=21

We can go back all the way to a Reshevsky game where the pawn push c4 is played (although much earlier in the game) to give white the slight edge in the opening. I studied the game, and elected not to do so, since a well timed ...d5 by black will equalize in the early stages and actually convey a slight advantage by the onset of the middlegame. So, the hunt was on not just for a "substitute move" but a new plan.

At this point in the game, move 11, I decided to play a non-traditional, strategic move, for the sole purpose of securing the queenside pawn structure (making it virtually bullet proof) and then tasking the knight to go on a long trip from the queenside to the kingside via d2 instead of c3.

3. The actual attack begins with a maneuver here:

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=25

Inspiration came from the King's Indian Attack, another opening I like when playing as white. Three consecutive Knight moves get the Knight into position, and I thought at this point "clearly black sees what I am doing here", so I thought I would "give away" my plan.

4. white gives up a piece that is never recovered again, something computers usually do not do.

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=31

5. I complete my earlier objective, now offering a Bishop as sacrifice after having already parted with a Knight.

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=33

6. And now here, 33 plies after 10. Nbd2 is played, we are still in a position where white is down a Rook for 2 pawns.

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=51

I would like all of you "computer experts" to tell me, how long would it take a program to search 33 plies from move 10 of the game? 1 day? 3 days? 10 days? How about 2 to the 12th days if there is a branching factor of 2 and you can complete a 21 ply search in 1 day.

4097 days of search would be required to play this line with a program starting from move 10.

After 17...Kh8 there is still a mate in 51 moves.

And, if chessmec would have gone over the game in more detail, he would have found this is a completely new handling of the Petroff from a strategic viewpoint, something beyond the capabilities of any computer.

I suppose when I won my game against the Deep Thought program in 1989 I was "praying to God" to whisper moves into my ear?

chessmec: Many, many moons ago, when I was a clubplayer, we always played with the rules that you weren't allowed to offer a draw twice, without a draw offer from the opponent in between.

But I can't find that rule in the FIDE laws of chess. However, I did find the following rule:

12.6 It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any matter whatsoever. This includes unreasonable claims or unreasonable offers of a draw.

Failure to comply with this rule can be punished by anything from a warning to expulsion from the event. (Articles 12.7 and 13.4).

Chess Laws

redsales: I do not know how the rules about offering draws continuosly in "real" chess. I played in a tournament in real chess years ago and my opponent offered a draw every move since the first. OK, it was easy for me, turning off my hearing aids :-) but the tournament boss recognized the continuos offer and declared the game won for me - due to unsportsmanlike behaviour.
Here in brainking i played a game in which was offered a draw every move and between the moves. My opponent did not recognize my warnings and i told it fencer ...

And what about the game EdTric against Alex? I studied it for some minutes, ok, beautiful. But without using comuter aid?

I would not say that white has the edge. I would say that white will be slightly better.......(Perhaps i'm wrong of course!)

i agree with chessmaster1000 blacks game had errors 17..Kg8?? 17.. Kh8 gives black some play but white still has the edge I would welcome the views of other top players

Nice game......! Some comments:

13...a5?! What was this move for..........? Perhaps it even deserved a "?".

15...Bxf5 and the attack has to wait. White is better though.....

17...Kg8? Hmmm, i would definitely played 17...Kh8 and i think there is a game after this. White would be better but he would not be winning.
After 17...Kg8 game is over..............

After 17...Kh8 if:

18.Rxe6 fxe6 19.Ng5 Qd7 20.Qf3 Bd8 21.Bg6 e5 22.Nf7 Kg8 with a small advantage for white......

18.Qc1 Ng8! and white has to find a way to attack.......(19.Qf4 Nd5 and then Ndf6 and black would have many defenders....(for example 20.Qe4 Ndf6 21.Qh4 Ng4 22.Bg5+ 23.Rxe6 fxe6 24.Qe4 Nf5 25.Qxe6 Rf8! with unclear game))

18.Qd2 Ng8 (or even Nh5) and white is not much better but just has a chance for an attack........
After 19.Qf4 we have the same position with 18.Qc1.

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067
Ed Trice has been getting unfair harassment of late ,therefore i would like all players to view this brilliant game, its the best that i have seen for a long time, I believe Ed has proved he is our No 1 player

im lost now where u 2?

well what do u play u go and invite me im new to this lol

indeed - he's the first one online ever who
played the b3 variation in the vulture sound and
is giving me a hard time of abyss walk ... ... ~*~ .

I created a tournament chess starting with 1st may 2005. Here: >http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?trg=6658&trnst=0


I hope this will get a strong tournament and help to check out who is the best :-)

If you want to join, please send me a message!

Matarilevich: That`s for sure!

Mely, Oliottavio, Ughaibu, Caissus, redsales, 529 are among the best chessplayers. These players can lost games but they would never make a fool themselves at this way.

Matarilevich:... but without chessrating.
Best chessplayer we have here is probably Mely.

I think the best player is Caoz, see the statistics. [Snip - positive comments only please! WQ :]

A tournament has been created to honor Mr. Ed Trice:

http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?trg=8217

Let's hope Mr. Trice joins. His intelligence and courage will be a a great asset in this endeavour.

Enough thank you ... let's move on (haha) ... Ed is quite right, he may move at whatever speed he desires so long as it meets the game's conditions. Sportsmanship is often subjective and contests are not always won just with the pieces on the board, but in this case let us just watch and see ... if an earlier estimation is correct that might be around about May next year. Further posts on this matter will probably be deleted.

Don´t ask draw repeatedly. It´s not correct. A good chessplayer would not continue in this position in a normal circumstances.

"You dont hear me crying about it", maybe not but I've just read it.

A player may move within the allotted time given for a game, no matter what.

Bad sportsmanship might be better defined as one player calling to the attention of others something along these lines.

My opponent has used inappropriate name-calling and taunting during the course of our play. This is how I elect to respond.

I did give him 2 pieces at the beginning of the game

http://brainking.com/game/ShowGame?g=415627&i=16

How much of a handicap did he thinks he needs?

And if this game was so "easy" why has he take a week or more to make moves on occasion? I was moving faster than him through much of this game.

Look at my game with Reza in the same tournament section, for example.

http://brainking.com/game/ShowGame?g=415628

I have an easy win against him in that game, and he has made fewer moves than my opponent (only 26).

You don't hear me crying about it.

Caissus:
Bad sportsmanship and intentional delaying of lost games shows the true character of the player and should not be tolarated!

Actually since he has the right to play whenever he wants, this is completely acceptable......

Having looked at the game i have to agree its an easy win for black. I have had many a talk with Ed and have found him to be a very nice person who has always been willing to answer any questions that i have had regarding computers,checkers,chess i regard him as a friend of good character, so i was surprised at the comments made I have made many friends on this and other sites i have a high regard for sportsmanship and value friendship so i find this affair upsetting im sure there must a reason for this .

Bad sportsmanship and intentional delaying of lost games shows the true character of the player and should not be tolarated!

ustica: Now, let him fish in troubled waters

please resing this http://brainking.com/game/ShowGame?g=415627 game? than players can move on.
note! you can play whit me in Gothic Chess. i make a engin for your game of Gothic Chess. i don t mind if i lose..

Months ago Gothic claimed he was winning and said he'd play each move at the last available second to drag the game out, this couched in terms including obscenities. Trice thereby set a standard for poor sportsmanship at BrainKing that I hope nobody else will ever approach. Yet he still won't resign, in this position that I could win in my sleep. I dont really care one way or the other about Trice but I care about BrainKing. This is an internet community, of social events, this unsporting behaviour of Trice' is not part of my idea of BrainKing, if it were to become the norm I would no longer play here. Okay, one pervert is tolerable, but that's a tournament game, this idiot is wasting everybody in that tournament's time.

ughaibu: no

i got 4 Gothic Chess games for members only.in the Waiting games.and no play. i wonder why?

Do you not know the story of this game?

Quite. Trice must've been drunk for the god knows how many months he's dragged this game out.

ughaibu: to ask for a draw! black win in 30 moves

Why's that?

ughaibu: must be drunk.

http://brainking.com/game/ShowGame?g=415627

Caissus: fics is the real thing period. ~*~

I have tried out FICS - http://www.freechess.org/ - the last days and I can say it is a very good server to play livechess (free) for all who wish to play without breaks (and without computers :-)) You can play there standard, crazyhouse, bughouse,wild,FRC,losers.There are also different free interfaces to download.The best seems to be "Babachess" http://www.babaschess.net/

It has very good graphic and many options.

Ivanchuck-Anand is about to begin: http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chess.pl?tid=45416&random=442319

are online here : http://www.k4it.de/index.php?topic=egtb&lang=de

Sorry for spamming, I hope you allow it. :-)

I'm selling some books (German and English) - mainly about various openings - from my chess collection. Maybe somebody from here would be interested...
http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZdavidsoucek

of chesschallenger 2 the first platebox against which I came to play. . if you
didn't leave your half of the board it went for 3 repeats .. . a good opportunity
for a serious tip, 1)e4 d5, 2)ed Qd5:, 3)Nc3 Qa5, 4)b4!? is worth a look. ... ~*~

1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd4 4.Nf3 Qd8
That can't be good for black.

ketchuplover: Cool site ! It's scary when you see all the machine's thinking visually :-)

Btw., against me, the machine played 1.e4 Nc6 2.d4 e5 ... quite uncommon opening. I did not have the time to finish the game however ...