Lamby: It doesn't affect the BKR until both players make two moves. But it counts as a loss.

If you accept a game, then resign before the game has started, does this still count as a loss & does it affect ratings? Thanks :o)

Fencer wow that's cool,

Clay- I think a tourney is in the process of being completed for the prize but yes :o)

furbster: CaoZ, a year ago.

furbster: Didnt someone win one recently?

furbster: Yes I think... I would, but robbing a bank could get me into trouble

Just wondered if anyone has ever had a maharajah membership on this site?

Walter Montego: i think that having been politely asked to drop the issue, it would be wise to do so!

Walter Montego: International law covers even Fencers homeland I would have thought.

Jules: Libel and slander? They have those things in Czech Republic? And they would apply to someone, say me, if I posted a review of various features of different game sites here? I think that's a real stretch. If anything, Fencer's main problem would come from someone badmouthing another site on this site and then letting it become an issue between the two sites. Which is something I'm not proposing to do.

I don't want to see a bunch of swear words and racial epitats all over the discussion boards, but I also don't like what I and others feel is overmoderation and control of the conversation either. Perhaps the solution is simple and just seeing another way of doing it will inspire someone to come up with a better way to do things.

I think I'll not say any more on this subject until Fencer weighs in on it. You guys keep expressing concern for his site's wellbeing. Let's see if he shares your fears about it.

Walter Montego: It starts getting into libel and slander territory. It'd be hard to prove, but is it work the risk for Fencer.

harley: It's hard to imagine someone's opinion causing the owner of a site trouble for allowing it to be read by others. Isn't that what blogs are?

Walter Montego: I'm still not convinced. If owners of other sites were to see people here comparing the two sites, it could cause trouble for Fencer. Especially if some not very nice things were being said. I could be wrong but I think this type of conversation has started up before and Fencer asked that we don't run down other sites here.
Besides, we all know

harley: After all, the both of them are comparing how discussion boards on run. Her post seems rather incredulous to me and I would certainly like to check up on it while giving her the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to strengthen her position. If what she says it right, I'd certainly like to see it in action and make sure that that system is something I'm not a part of. If she's just overselling her point, but still has some valid issues with how they do it at IYT, I'll keep it in mind. And if I go to there and find I completely disagree with how she has stated it and there's anything to CrankyFranky's viewpoint, I'd certainly like to report back here that Fencer might want to incorporate some their way of doing it here.

I have the feeling that the reality lies between the two ways that they're looking at it, though Jules seems to lean lots more toward baudrillard's view. If you'd rather she not post a reply to my question on this board then I hope she'll send me the places to visit in a message. I think this is on topic. Which is better, BrainKing or It's Your Turn? I like the games and how they're run here better, but I've been having my concerns left unaddressed about the discussion boards. Hmm, I shouldn't say unaddressed, a few people do write to me or post where I may view their thoughts, but that doesn't mean I've been happy with how things are going here and I think it can be improved. From what I've seen posted in recent days, I'm not the only one.

Would you mind replying at general chat, or in private? I think discussions about other games sites are off topic here. Thank you

baudrillard: Wow! After reading this post, you've really raised my curiosity about the discussion boards on IYT. It's hard to imagine them being as extreme as you make them out to be baudrillard, but I won't know for myself until I get other there and see. How many of them do they have? Which ones should I visit to see examples of this attacking, screaming, swearing, homophobic, racist, people that you speak of?

Cranky Franky: >At IYT people are respected enough to regulate themselves, and they don't have to put up with moderators who have an agenda or a personal ax to grind.

What a scream!!!!!!!! At IYT they are allowed to attack, scream, swear ... they can be homophobic, racist, sexist ... whatever they want to be! Respect???? I don't think so! Freedom of Speech? ya right. Just dip into the discussion boards for five minutes and see what that does!

So Goodbye, Cranky Franky .... go back to the IYT slurry and send us all a postcard! I vote one hundred percent for the moderators here!!!!!!!! Thank you guys!

Walter, Fencer doesn't just let the global mods do as they please. He reads all discussions we have and has the final say of everything. If we even suggested something he didn't like, he says so immediately. He hasn't handed over the site to us, we just assist in keeping it how FENCER wants it.

Who was that, that said we didnt need moderators?

Me too walter.

Summertop:

Walter Montego, Can you imagine Walter as a GLOB? Just kidding Walter.

ClayNashvilleTn: I didn't see this post that you're talking about. Could you direct me to it? And what is CrankyFranky talking about? What are you talking about? Code of honor? Right, now there's something to think about. When do I get to be a Global Moderator?

I still think that moderators that aren't global moderators that are appointed by Fencer should not be able to be removed by a global moderator, but Fencer seems happy to have it this way. I know I'd not run my site like that. Perhaps that's why his site is successful though. A little delegation of power can work if done right. I just think he's ceded too much, though as benevolent dictator he can at any time reassert his control and do what he thinks is best. Maybe that's what spurs me on in my hopes, that such a thing will happen.

...I mean I say this becuase I don't play with people from certain countries,some of them have issues and stuff!

Is it possible to put the flag on the waiting games aside the name?I bet alot o people have to click on the game to know the nationality of the player...
It would be easier to have a flag after the name of the player,if one is searching for country people.
What do you homies think about this ?

Andersp:I beleive if they have failed it's because of misunderstandings between the BIG 3.

Fencer, Globs and Mods.

It is my understanding a move is underway to rewrite or to enforce existing rules across the board. I have heard rumors of that. I hope it's true. I'm sure everyone by now saw the post that was posted by a Mod earlier this week concerning the Mods thinking, that the Code of Honor was a joke.

I do not beleive that. I do not beleive MOST mods think that. I say give them time and see if there aren't "more" changes forth coming shortly.

Yes.

Can I post?

morphy4ever: Yes.

If you don't believe me ask one of your friends. I'm sure at least one of them knows.

.. Oh yes, I forgot.. A politness rating system that is supposed to stop the worst which is abused by asking players for votes. Hence, people who would of got a life long ban from here still roam that site.

ClayNashvilleTn: There are "devils in disguise" among all kind of people...even GMs..believe me

Cranky Franky:Have you written to any of the Global Mods? They are listed below. I have been pleased with their response in general concerning any complaint I have ever had. Global moderators:

harley
bumble
NOT a floosie

Bry
BIG BAD WOLF
Eriisa
Londo

I believe that the moderator issue (and in my opinion there is an issue) has only one solution:
Put only one trustworthy moderator per board or in even more than one boards, and keep him/her for a looooong time.

Fencer ONLY (and not any global persons) as a wise man, will decide if he/she is doing his/her job well and everything will be perfect........!
My opinion.........

Jules: Is that so?

Cranky Franky: You've been a member here longer than me though until just recently I don't recall ever seeing your handle in the discussion boards that I usually read and post to. I know the feeling about this place of late. I posted quite extensively about what I thought were the moderations problems to this site on this very board back on April 8th and a day or so afterwards. I'm not familiar with you or whatever happened to you in whatever discussion board you're talking about, but I have the feeling there's some merit to what you're typing just from how I've seen things change around here since mid-February.

As for It's Your Turn, I haven't been there in some time. I didn't realize they had discussion boards, or I have forgotten that they had them. I check that site from time to time, but I haven't used my account to play a game there in more than a year. I like this site better than IYT. I'm hoping the discussion boards and how they're moderated is changed soon, but if not I can still play games on this site and just deal with the extracurriculal activities by not engaging in them. I'm not a member of any fellowships, and though I really like typing to these boards I will stop eventually if changes aren't made to how they're moderated. This will still leave me the ability to play games, which is my primary thing to do here. The secondary stuff is important to me too, but some of it has been taken from me. For the most part I have likable opponents that play their games well and are usually good sports. When I do come across someone that doesn't like playing me, we have a simple solution; we don't play any more games together.

Anyways, take care. At least hang out for a few more weeks to see if things get changed or perhaps worked on. I'm not sure if things can be made better for you, but if any of the things that I thought to do are put into place it will take some programming and trial and error to test out. I have yet to get any response from Fencer, which in a lot of ways is forcing me to guess what he's thinking and put my hopes on nothing but speculation. As you say it's his baby. I said as much in different words, but that is what it comes down to.

I think I want one of these sites for myself. I just wonder how I can get more than three poeple to visit it? :)

Cranky Franky: Yeah right, pull the other one it's got bells on it.

You forgot to mention the flaming, name calling, harrasement and other poo that goes on on the IYT boards. Not to mention that some send constant complaints into IYT so when the serious complaints get sent in they are ignored. Not that Pat Chu listens to his members much anyway... unless they threaten him.

That doesn't happen here.

Many of the people at this site do not live under self regulating forms of government. They are used to being micro-managed and prefer it that way, not because they like it but because they are used to it and they have learned how to deal with it. (I'm talking about regional politics) There really is a different way of thinking and dealing with problems here, and the people who vent their anti-US crap here are even more welcome at this site than they are at a liberal US site. Someone didn't like me throwing the anti-US crap I had to listen to back at someone else who was baiting me, so the mod had me banned. The guy who baited me is still allowed to post there and I'm still banned. I'll always be a "brain-pawn" here until I'm banned from the site or decide to leave, because there is no way I will ever voluntarily pay for being treated this way. At IYT people are respected enough to regulate themselves, and they don't have to put up with moderators who have an agenda or a personal ax to grind.

Good luck with your site Fencer. Any experimenting will have its up and downs. I suppose I could have warned you about peer moderated boards before you put those in effect, but this is your baby and I'm not the one who changes the diapers around here. IYT has a better way of letting people regulate the boards, there is less fussing with complainers and fewer personal complaints management has to deal with.

Bye y'all

harley: Could a feature like that be added without over extending the server Fencer is currently using?

Actually, I'm fascinated by the use neural nets that playBunny was talking about. Are neural nets something current PCs can use, or are already using? I'm hopelessly behind in knowing what's up with PC capability, in case you hadn't already guessed that. Neural nets are the logical way to go in creating an artificial intelligence, although the home grown all natural organic ones are still the best and most reliable neural nets on the planet...I need some sleep.

farmer sam: I've got me Acme personality wipe/install kit.

Jules: Too depressing.

Harley, I hope you were being sarcastic.

I choose Kryton!

I'll use Marvin lol

I thought a discussion about programmes was quite appropriate for a games site. If people are using them, it will affect the future of BK, or they may even become a feature! Programme assisted tournaments! That could be interesting!

myfanwy: //RRRRRRRR that doesnot compute/ RRRRR/ please rephrase input.port/slash/?

Can't this conversation go to the computer board or something?

Caissus: I don't know how it was done, but someone (I've already named him, so it's too late to keep him anonymous) took one of my completed game and analysed the opponents side of it. It came back with a high 90 percentile probability (something over 95%) of being entirely played by a computer. We both suspected he was using a computer, but he also had quite an extensive knowledge of the game, so it is possible we could have both been wrong. The individual in question also had an extensive knowledge of everything there is to know in the known unverse, but whenever I questioned him regarding matters I am familiar with he would simply repeat what he was harvesting off google. I caught him posting entire passages from sites by entering suspicious looking text he posted as his own thoughts into google. No reason for me to think he wasn't cheating in chess games as well, he played perfect book openings and the games were flawlessly thematic(?). I'm definitely a flawed player, and I'm still not sure what the word thematic is supposed to mean, even though it's been expained to me a few times.

But you're right about occassional use of a program. There's really no way to see the difference between a computer move and a sudden flash of brilliant insight. Besides, those sudden flashes can be painful if you have sensitive eyeballs.

playBunny: Any questions Yes could you please repeat that?

Dang, thanks for an informative post..I'm still reading.

playBunny: and even some games (I guess what you might call standard games) at World Class level. This is something that any of the top 50(?) players here is capable of.

Reduce approximatelly 45 from 50 and you are OK....
I guess that the first 50 are on the Intermediate to Advanced in the GNUBG grades.....That's mainly because almost all here play too defensively by not leaving any blots.
(A small example: I've seen millions of times to play the starting 41 as a 5, you know where. Awful!) This is not a terrible strategy, its quite successful(although compared to the best strategy is far behind), but that combined with other weaknesses, it's way below the GNUBG's Expert level............

Also do not always trust the Snowie's or GNUBG's or Jellyfish's or BGBlitz's (you forgot that and it's really strong!) estimates of your play.
For example the usual thing with me is that GNUBG finds around 3 small (Second choices or ?! if you are familiar with GNUBG's analysis) mistakes on a game, but after a rollout, the 2 of them are actually the best moves.........So you should always do a rollout in the identified mistakes......

Also Jellyfish 3.5 as a player !!in its full strenth!! but without any analysing features, is free and very small to download and play with a very good player......

Right now i would rank as following:
1) GNUBG 0.14.3 with very little difference from
2) Top Human Players + Snowie 4.1
3) BGBlitz 1.9.0
4) Jellyfish 3.5

Cranky Franky:"By the way, there are programs that can analise a chess game and compute the probability of a chess program being used. AD used something like this to analise a game I played at IYT, so I know these sort of programs exist."

And what will you do if a player in game plays the most moves by himself and only sometimes is using a program?
To find out if a move was considered by the player or described by a chessprogram is not possible with safeness.
I know that the chessbaseserver is using some statistical methods.But these methods work only in fast games without breaks and doesn`t work in turn based games.

playBunny: Thank you for this detailed explanation of Backgammon playing machines. I'm not going to bother with all that to get better at playing. I'll keep doing what I've been doing, winging it and seeing what works. Then trying to remember it if a similar situation comes up in a different game. I saw a game between sko and Rex a few months back. After watching how it was played with going amazement, I decided to change my style too. It has worked as I stopped my downward slide in the ratings and have cracked the top ten a couple times in the last few weeks. Plus the games are much more fun for me with my new plans and style, though it has led to me getting spanked very bad on occasion from leaving them blots about the board as I sometime do. Recognizing when not to do that is now what I have to work on. :)

Last year when my truck was broke down in Bishop, I bought two old Backgammon books at a used book store. The authors of both of them are the Jacoby and Crawford that are mentioned from time to time. Plus a Barclay guy and one other gentleman whose name escapes me right now. I'd be willing to bet these guys would play well against the programs you write of. I can also imagine that because of how computers find out things, some of those cherished older plans would hurt these old experts in play agains these programs. I've never used the doubling cube, so when it becomes available, I'll have to start up another learning slope. From some of the examples in one of my books, this doubling cube and how to figure out the odds (Especially at the end of a game when both players just have a few more men to bear off) would really be something that a computer program would excel at. At least on a turn based site when someone doubles me, I'll have the time to count on my fingers (and toes if necessary) and figure out the odds once I understand how the cube affects decisions. These guys that wrote my books were obviously into playing it for high stakes and that definitely is different than playing it for free or a buck a game.

Uh oh..smoke coming out of my..

My earhairs are on fire!!