Bwild: --"they" say......this is exactly my point.--

That is a great point. Simple and neat, and it excuses you from thinking.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time and those are the ones you want to concentrate on."--George W. Bush

Czuch: "I dont underestimate peoples ability to take care of themselves.. it is you who over estimates it..... if they are taking care of themselves so well, why do I have to feed them????"

Trust me, your money isn't going to feed them, it is going to kill them & starve them. I don't suppose you'll ever figure that out.

Czuch: "most would love to let Usurper eat boogers in a swap for our shoddy health care system"

I'm sure some would like to see me in a FEMA gulag. lol

Czuch: "Take away all that from the equation, and we are on the same side again, for awhile anyway, i would not support our military intervention in any country that we were not responsible for anyway, or who have asked for our help specifically!"

Then we are in agreement, except in your underestimation of a people's ability to take care of themselves & prosper if left to themselves.

And since we are in agreement, why do you continue to support intervention?

Czuch: That sounds like the best solution to me. Leave them the hell alone. Of course, we owe them a couple trillion in restorations, but beyond that, they can take care of themselves.

It isn't my rhetoric that bores you, it's the facts I point out, which you don't find palatable.

Czuch: "it is a huge web of elected officials"

Wise people call it the Matrix.

Czuch: "We are not the cause of their suffering, they were suffering all on their own before we went there, and what is so wrong with suffering anyway????"

Oh, I see....so when a bomb we drop blows up an Iraqi kid, we didn't cause his suffering....or the suffering of his parents, etc? Interesting....

And what is so bad about suffering? Hmmmm....let's see, mutilation of limbs, destruction organs....starvation & poison in the air...depleted uranium & defored babies....you know I guess you're right, those things aren't so bad after all. How could I be so foolish as to pity people for that!?

If I were an Iraqi today, I'd sure as heck want to trade places with me....anything to get away from the violence & poverty caused by the American war machine.

Czuch: Sure, the poor peoples of the world want more material goods, and some of them want the relative freedoms we enjoy. But they don't want our oppression of them so that we can be so wealthy. And America is slipping...less freedom, less wealth for the average citizen.

The U.S. government may be YOU, but it certainly isn't ME. I claim no part of it, I didn't vote for it. It doesn't represent me.

If you are an ally of the Iraqi people, it is a strange allegiance that combines affection with indifference towards the suffering your government causes them.

(V): "he learns two bits of info"

Yes, two bits of data, which hopefully he will utilize the many parts of thinking to properly interpret. :o)

(V): It's funny, for years I used to go around saying, "I grok that," or "I am grokking the fullness," and of course no one had a clue what I was talking about. lol

(V): With intelligence only, one can in some sense know. But wisdom must be added, if one is to grok. :o)

(V): Maybe I am mistaken...I was under the impression Bwild is asking about the Nazi quote in the subject line?

(V): Proverbs 8 has always been one of my favorite passages of scripture, not only for its content but for its beautiful expression. Wisdom, that is the principle thing...therefore get wisdom! :o)

"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists."
~ J. Edgar Hoover

"Yes, many people will die when the New World Order is established, but it will be a much better world for those who survive".
~ Henry Kissinger

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order."
~ David Rockefeller

"The greatest purveyor of violence on earth is my own government"
~ Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

"How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think."
~ Adolf Hitler

When stupidity is considered patriotism, it is unsafe to be intelligent.
~ Isaac Asimov

"Terrorism is the best political weapon for nothing drives people harder than a fear of sudden death."
~ Adolf Hitler

"The great masses of people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. Especially if it is repeated over and over."
~ Adolph Hitler

"The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth becomes the greatest enemy of the state."
~ Dr. Joseph M. Goebbels - Hitler's propaganda minister

"I know two types of law because I know two types of men,
those who are with us and those who are against us."
~ Hermann Goering, 1936

"You are either with us or against us."
~ George W. Bush, November 2001

"I don't know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
~ G.W. Bush August 27 1988

"One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail."
~ Rabbi Yaacov Perrin, Feb. 27, 1994

"That’s where the Bush family fortune came from: It came from the Third Reich"
~ John Loftus

"There's really five companies that control 90 percent of what we read, see and hear."
~ Ted Turner

Czuch: It sounds like the Vietnamese are gracious in victory, and also - as (V) says - its Communist party recognizes the importance of friendly relations with the U.S. for economic development.

If Iraq manages to kick us out, maybe in 20 years they'll make some progress and then be gracious in victory as well. You'll then claim that all their progress is due to the U.S. invasion? lol

In one sense, you are partially correct. When an enemy doesn't kill you outright, he makes you stronger. Make no mistake, the U.S. govt. was an enemy of the Vietnamese people, and it is now an enemy of the Iraqi people.

Bwild: Hermann Goering, Hitler’s Reich Marshall, at the Nuremberg Trials after World War II.

(V): To grok or not to grok is certainly the question, and contrary to the apparent opinions of some, no 11th commandment can be found in Exodus or Deuteronomy, stating, "Thou shalt not grok."

As you've intimated, grokking comes with a price.

(V): "....would be nice if some others could broaden their awareness."

That's not meant as a slight. I mean it really would be a wonderful thing.

(V): Says it all. I knew you would understand it....would be nice if some others could broaden their awareness. :o)

"Why, of course, the people don't want war," [Hermann] Göring shrugged. "Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship."

"There is one difference," [Gustave M. Gilbert] pointed out. "In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare war."

"Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."

(Nuremberg Diary, pp. 278–79)

(V): Either that or it is coincidence number 1,647,248,506,354,035,503,344,445. lol

I think it must have been a safety precaution, in case something went wrong with the plan & they got caught in the act.

Actually, a lot DID go wrong. Had all the flights departed on schedule, then the crashes could have been no more than 20 minutes from first to last. Then NORAD wouldn't have been accused of a stand down order. As it was, for example, Flight 93 took off 41 minutes late.

So it appears there were contingent plans. Flight 77 couldn't make it to the Pentagon, or whichever plane was supposed to hit it....so they used a missile or small military plane. WTC 7, maybe, was the target of one of the planes, but had to be demolished in the afternoon when a plane didn't get there. It was likely the headquarters of operation (CIA and other secret agencies had space in the building).

(V): I agree with you, not disputing that at all. Of course no Pres can solve this deepening crisis, and certainly not right away. I was only taking an opportunity to point out another of those 9/11 mysteries. lol

TALLAHASSEE, Fla. -- Florida Governor Jeb Bush signed Executive Order 01-261 September 7, 2001, four days before the WTC tragedy of Sept. 11, which paves the way for a declaration of martial law in his state. The governor, in his EO, delegated to, “...the Adjutant General of the state of Florida all necessary authority....to order members of the Florida National Guard into Active Service.”

Immediately after the second WTC tower fell, Governor Bush signed EO 01-262 to make Florida the first state to declare a state of emergency though his state did not experience any terrorist events that day. Governor Bush is reportedly the only governor in the U.S. outside of NY and D.C. to make a declaration of martial law in the wake of the WTC tragedy. Interestingly, Governor Bush's declaration came before authorities in New York or Washington, D.C. declared states of emergency."

http://proliberty.com/observer/20011008.htm

[Verrrrrrrrrry interesting]

(V): "better find the Pres a large deposit of gold."

Apparently a large deposit of gold is one of the things missing from beneath the WTC. Another unsolved mystery.....

Czuch: So you believe the Vietnam war was a just cause, and that we should have stuck it out to victory? And you interviewed some people in Vietnam who hold this view?

It is estimated that 2-4 million died in Vietnam during the war. It is known that we dropped more bombs in Vietnam that we did in WWII. Are you suggesting we just didn't kill enough of them to break the will of the Vietcong & North Vietnamese? Or what?

Also a question for you, just a general one. If you support our intervening in other countries for the betterworld of the world, why do you call yourself a conservative? That's a progressive policy.

So let's say you are a progressive on foreign policy, not a conservative. Are you a conservative at home? Well, you support welfare to the rich, so I guess not. Hmmmm...these terms keep getting twisted out of their proper & historical meanings.

But back to foreign policy. A true progressive believes we can better the world by intervention. So the motives are good. But I ask you, if a dictatorial power, or an imperial power (same thing) wants to spread its influence & force abroad, what will it claim? Why, it will claim to be a progressive power, trying to better the world & help people, etc.

So the question then is this...how do you distinguish between a truly progressive motive and a motive that is imperial but pretends it is progressive? Do you think that, by definition, if the U.S. is doing it, it is always progressive, and if someone else is doing it (like Russia or China) it is always oppressive? Or do you look to the evidence at hand, on a case-by-case basis, or perhaps at historical patterns?

Czuch: "This sucks, I have to be to work in 20 m inutes and need a shower and a 15 minute drive.... whoops!"

Ok, be careful. We've time for this debate later (I hope).

"Really? You have someone who has personally been there conducting personal interviews with the common people today????"

I thought you meant you fought in Vietnam. I keep forgetting your age, you remind me so much of Archie Bunker. lol

I'll look into that and get back with you. Have a good day at work.

Czuch: "Problem is, I USED to think like you, and I have seen things more clearly and my opinions have already changed!!"

Too bad you changed. Often in a dictatorship, people go the way of the dictators.

Czuch: "I have personally been to Vietnam...."

There are plenty of voices from Vietnam who speak a different tale about the Vietnamese than you do.

Czuch: "Its not just that I personally prefer it, i think it is absolutely the right thing!"

I'm glad you are following your conscience, even if I believe your information is bad. If you are following your conscience, then perhaps in time you'll get better informed and see things more clearly, and your opinions will change. There is hope for a man who does & believes what he thinks is right.

Czuch: "If we just hadnt sanctioned them for being (BEEP) they would be a thriving and prosperous nation, without the need of our money and support????"

Yes, without sanctions they'd have rebuilt and been just fine. It is US meddling with THEM that caused their problems. Saddam wouldn't even have come to power except WE initiated the coup. Learn some history.

Czuch: "you dont like it, I do...."

That's the bottom line for you, you like it so however you can justify it, you will. I'm different from you. I consider whether a thing is right, not what I personally prefer. And I think the Iraqi people have to like it, not you or me. Now, the Iraqi people hate us. And for good reason. We just went in and destroyed their civilization.

Spin it how you want. Hitler did. Bush did. Caesar did. I call it as I see it. I call it tyranny.

You say I blame American first. No I don't. I don't blame America for WWII. I don't blame America for 1776. I don't blame America for WWI. But I do blame America for Vietnam, and for Iraq, and for many other crimes against humanity. If my son committed murder, I'd blame him too.

Czuch: "As far as I am concerned, when you take my money to support yourself, then I have a right to impose limits and regulations and rules on you..."

Are you still talking about Iraq? Talk about spinning an argument! Make up your mind, are you for liberating the Iraqis, or for "imposing limits and regulations and rules on them"?

I know what the U.S. is there for. To control the Middle East, most especially the oil supply, and to impose our will on the inhabitants, in order to do so.
This is not secret knowledge. No rocket scientist is needed to understand it.

Czuch: "Really??? A people who are starving to death and relying on the outside world to feed and clothe them and to monitor their government for them, these are people we have no right to liberate????"

You just don't know history. The Iraqi children were starving in the 90s because of the sanctions WE imposed. This we have even admitted. Madeline Albright, Secretary of State under Clinton, said that 500,000 Iraqi children dying as a result of our sanctions was "worth it," in order to "contain" Saddam Hussein.

Czuch: "I am asking about liberating people who are asking to be liberated, which clearly the majority of the Iraqi people were...."

No they weren't. Just how many excuses for invasion will you believe from proven liars? Iraq connected with al-queda! Oops, no. Iraq has WMDs! Oops, no. Oh, I know! Poor Iraqis want to be free of Saddam Hussein! That's it. So let's ride to the rescue. No self-interest on our part, you see, we just want to be helpful. It's what we do in the world, our official policy. To be helpful to others all through the world. We call it Unrealpolitik.

"I am sure that if you were arguing my side, you would be able to find some nice bible quotes explaining how order comes from chaos, or something like that..."

If I were assigned your side in a debate, who knows what I might come up with? But in that case I'd be on the wrong side of the debate & the wrong side of history, so I'd better get ready to do some serious spinning.

"You have been there?"

Have you?

"If and when the majority of the American people believe as you do that the US government is using a theoretical WMD against its own people, in secret and harmful ways, and we become unable to do anything about it ourselves, then by all means, the Russians or Chinese or whomever would be more than welcome in coming here and trying to liberate us!!"

Be careful what you wish for. A people can only free themselves. If we are to be liberated, we must liberate ourselves from our darker half. No one can do this for us.

There is no such thing as democracy at the point of a gun. That is democracy's anti-thesis. Only in this age of mass propaganda can a people be fooled into believing such twisted nonsense.

Czuch: "do you believe it is okay to use military force for the purpose of liberating people from an unworthy, and otherwise evil regime?"

The simple rule is to stay out of people's business. Unworthy? The U.S. regime is also unworthy. Evil? The U.S. regime is also evil in many ways. Does that justify Russia, or China, or somebody else coming to "liberate us" from our oppressive government?

But even if, for the sake of argument, it were right to liberate a people not asking to be liberated....let us assume the evil ruler is killing all his subjects and not using chemical weapons we supplied him with to do it, as in our old friend Saddam's case (remember we put him in power & he was our ally up until Gulf War I)....let's assume it is a genuine rescue of a people desperately oppressed....well then, maybe a case could be made for that, like rescuing a child from abusive parents.

And that, naturally, is what the U.S. claims its mission was in Iraq. If that's true, why stop at Iraq? Why not rescue the Chinese and the Russians and every oppressed people the world over? Since we are so wise & wonderful, why not just police the whole world for everybody's good...even if they don't recognize that good for themselves? Even you ought to be able to recognize how anti-democratic, anti-libertarian, anti-freedom such a concept really is. Every people has the fundamental right of self-determination. It is on this right we ourselves stood, when we declared our independence in 1776.

And it isn't the case at all that we are spreading liberty, even in Iraq. It's the cover story. But we've brought slaughter and chaos to Iraq, not liberation. We have killed, not healed. We've brought more oppression, in the guise of a puppet-democracy. The only Iraqis we've freed are the dead ones...we freed them from the sorrows of life. It doesn't take a genius to see this, only a fairly impartial observer.

I've reached my 500 word limit.

--Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.--

--How far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without?--

--In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.--

ScarletRose: "Make Love Not War"

That's a worthy sentiment. Thanks for posting it. Now if only we could convince the warmongers. lol

(V): To follow up on an earlier theme, here's an interesting article:

Alien Abduction, Demonic Possession, and The Legend of The Vampire
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/demons.htm


It's one of the articles that got me to thinking, hmmm, maybe these guys aren't so nice after all. Even if you find it less than convincing, you might find it stimulating.

(V): It is as you say, and the last few days here I've broadened the scope of my argument against America by following the implications of 9/11 being a U.S. conspiracy, of the Iraq war being illegal, of torture unto death, of links revealing CIA involvement in crimes worldwide, just a whole plethora of things. I can understand how this would seem surreal to someone who hasn't spent some time adjusting themselves emotionally & intellectually to a vastly different worldview. It's like an alternate reality that is simply too much to take in at once. I sympathize with this.

Bernice's case is different only in that, with the exception of one post that I can recall, she has consistently opposed everything I've said on this board from the beginning, about any issue whatsoever. So it doesn't follow that NOW she must reject my arguments, whereas BEFORE she thought I was making some good ones. Now....perhaps she really did think that, but I've seen no evidence of it (except her last statement about my previous "credibility" which, considering what has gone before, I find less than credible itself).

(V): Thanks for the post. Some of our politicians have admitted as much, saying that Iraq ought to be divided into smaller regions based on ethnicity. Of course the point being, "look how they can't get along," not revealing or admitting that this situation is precisely what we've engineered.

I remember Joe Biden, for example, our new VP, talking about this (that Iraq ought to be broken up) on the Bill Maher show on HBO, back before he was even picked to be Obama's running mate.

....the Palestinians

....their lands weren't so devastated, perhaps some Iraqis & Afghanis would come on this international website and defend themselves.

Guess I'll have to take up the slack.

An Arab Woman Blues
http://www.arabwomanblues.blogspot.com/

Great blog. Too much truth & wisdom for most of you.

Bernice: Not good enough, because I don't actually believe you. lol

Bernice: "Im starting to disbelieve everything you say"

Don't be so coy. You have to believe something before you can start disbelieving it.

(V): "Reminds me of a certain passage..."

Sounds like Ecclesiastes, correct? The other quote is profound also, but I don't know the author.

Czuch: "Complicity" has a broad range of interpretation, from LIHOP (Let It Happen On Purpose) to MIHOP (Made It Happen On Purpose). The evidence points more to MIHOP, but even LIHOP is a treasonable offence.

When one country invades another country unprovoked, it is State Terrorism and every death resulting from that invasion is unjustifiable.

The U.S. invaded Iraq unprovoked.
The U.S. is therefore practicing State Terrorism in Iraq.
Every death in Iraq is unjustifiable.

"Murder" is actually not the appropriate word, here. "Genocide" speaks more to the facts.

Artful Dodger: "Even distortions"

Don't confuse independent researchers with U.S. distortioners of evidence.