(V): How can everything that happened during Bush be his fault, when you so easily blame others for what happened during Carter?

Tuesday: it's entertainment, not something to educate...

Same for Gores an inconvenient truth???? That won all kinds of movie awards... glad you think its all just entertainment, and not education.... but why did they make all the school kids watch for then???

Tuesday: Carter was by far the worst president we ever had... remember the lines for gas, hostage crisis etc??? whos fault was it then?

(V): It's not intended to last forever, just long enough to help your country recover.


Thats fine.... just that many think we will recover in a couple or few years anyway, without the government huge spending, some disagree, Bam was elected, so we do it his way, doesnt mean we have to think it is the right decision, all we can do is sit back and see what happens now.

Charles Martel: We all knew this would happen.... when you bash bush its because he is an idiot who deserves it... when you bash Bam..... at least everything being said against Bam is true, nobody has lied or misrepresented or taken out of context anything.... its simple disagreement in views and ideas...

Tuesday: does this mean you are going to be supportive of Obama?

What do you consider support??? I am not out with a protest sign against him, I am not calling for his impeachment.... is that support?

(V): Boom periods based on credit never last. It's an economic fact. The Bubble will burst and not nicely.

...and it is my opinion, and others as well, like some you see on fox news, that this new spending spree is only temporary as well, and it too will never last!


Its like giving a kid an allowance... they have money to spend, go to the mall or the movies or a bite to eat, but that $20 bucks only goes so far, and they come back next week looking for another $20.... the reality is that you arent creating any wealth when you give your kid an allowance, you give them something temporary, nothing different when the government pumps a bunch of money at us, its a temporary fix.... and there is absolutely no evidence that we wont get to the same place in a few years without any type of stimulus?

Economists are still today debating weather or not the new deal actually made us take longer to come out of the great depression, than doing nothing at all would have!

(V): Oh I was listening and those who were talking wanted him to fail. I think they are miffed at him being a democrat and President. Bad losing basically


Are you kidding me????? Where have you been the last 8 years, in a cave????? I can find you 10 news stations for every fox news that did exactly what you are saying against Bush!!!!! I never remember you calling them bad losers?????

Tuesday: and happen to be the type to give a hand up to the people conservatives detest.


Its called a hand out not hand up.....

Tuesday: Heck no... I can make $200 to $300 a night for a 5 hour shift waiting tables... I know many people who keep waiting tables even after they graduate college because it pays better than their new careers would!

But do you honestly think someone would turn down a better higher paying job just because they like serving people food so much?

(V): You are talking like you expect a perfect world... It ain't.


Yup, we happen to agree.... it aint a perfect world, our economy will sometimes slump, some people will lose jobs some will lack opportunity, sometimes the markets will rise, sometimes people will get a good job... its an ebb and flow.... like everything.... the economy will rise and fall, the earths climate will constantly change, there is nothing wrong with any of that.... especially nothing that needs us to go into a panic spending spree, liberals are all about panic and scare tactics, they paint everything gloom and doom and then tell us they can take care of it all, just give them a chance and they will save us from ourselves!

Czuch: You seem to forget the Iraq war, when liberals said they support our troops, but not the war????

Why cant we now support our president but not his policies????

(V): You obviously dont listen closely enough.... nobody wants him to fail, we just dont think huge government spending and other parts of his plans are the right answer.

Nobody wants our country to be in economic ruins either, we just dont think that is going to happen, we simply got way ahead of ourselves, and we are naturally correcting, where does it say that we are all entitled to unlimited growth and prosperity all the time????

The Usurper: Problem with your theory is, fox news didnt create conservatism, its the other way around....

(V):

Are you saying that only the rich should have babies? Are you proposing a somewhat big brother approach to having families where only approved parents can have children and any poor people who have babies are to be prosecuted and jailed?

Not even close to what I am saying..... Its a personal choice, but dont complain to me or ask me to help you raise the kids you had that you cannot afford to have either! Most minimum wage jobs are for the young and undereducated, stepping stone jobs that arent meant as life long careers for anyone, they arent meant for married couples with a hand full of kids.

The Usurper:

But let's assume two parents are working for minimum wage...that simply doesn't cut it, and by a long shot.


Well what the Huck are two people who can only obtain minimum wage jobs doing having kids in the first place??????????


Its just so frustrating to listen to you babble on about how poverty is because of lack of opportunity, yet you live in the country that offers more opportunity than any other, and when we try to give Iraqis a chance for more opportunities, instead of sending them food decade after decade, actually giving them hope to take care of themselves, then all you want is for Bush to go to jail, and whine and cry about the imperialist nation builder!!!!!


Its kind of like the example where no one breaks any laws, ever.... well, what would the police do, or the jails, what about all the revenue generated from fines and such????? As much as we say we want no crimes, at the same time we rely on crimes to make us money and provide jobs.

Its no different here, you say you dont like poverty, yet what would liberals do if there were no poor to hand out money to, what if there were no one that needed the government to help them, then where would liberalism be??? You rely on the poor and uneducated and the elderly and the down trodden or else you wouldnt even exist, you have no interest in getting rid of poverty, you just want to keep peoples heads just above water, like a drug dealer, you want them to need you, its your only life line.

The Usurper:

Poverty has more to do with lack of opportunity than with lack of initiative.


Find me a country with more opportunity than the US, and I might have to listen to you for a second...

(V): Im not talking about them being on the streets or not, although I can agree that jail alone, without rehab and training is no good.

But I dont want to pay them welfare either, after they have been the ones to choose a life of crime and drugs over hard productive work. i would prefer, if my money is to pay for anything, to put them in jail for rehab and training and they get out to a job of some sort, to me that is the best form of welfare!

But to give people money and stamps for food and extending insurance, without much control over how they are used etc, that doesnt make sense to anyone except the good ol government that liberals so hoipefully support.

Why not, after unemployment insurance runs out, and you have not found a new job, then some money for retraining or the like, but to keep throwing good money away, it just doesnt make any sense.

(V): There are some who simply make a bad decision.... they think that selling drugs or doing other crimes will get them money faster and easier than getting a real job..... and most of the time they are right. But they are just too lazy to make money the old fashioned way, and then down the road, when they are hooked on drugs and in and out of jail, and having babies out of wed lock and all the other ills that go along with becoming criminals, thats when you want me to have compassion, and feel sorry for them because they are drug addicted and poor... its just too late for compassion when someone has made their own bed with bad choices.

(V): I think you assume it is the two parents who are working who are the rich people, and the ones who are away from their kids too much?

I dont happen to think that is accurate... I think those families are just working extra hard to stay in the middle class, or are middle class working extra hard to get a few extra comforts for their families... but I can see where too much work equals neglect for the children and that can have consequences.

rod03801: I hope it's a warm ocean you have me floating around in, like an amoeba. (Even though you know NOTHING about what I stand for)


hahahahaha.... actually, by that point in my post i was thinking more about BBW....hahahahah sorry!

Tuesday: Part of keeping unemployment is proof of job searching I think.


Yes, except that you arent required to look for or take a job that is not at least equal to the one you lost..... many people simply go to the same place they know is not hiring and keep applying there every week or two....


As far as grants, i dont mind that idea, as long as they go out fairly, without a bias towards race etc, but I dont know that much about grants, are they all federal grants, or state or private?

Tuesday: The problem is with the system then.... its like using your finger to plug holes in a dam, I say fix the dam, you say lets fill more holes?

We all pay for insurance, my car my home my health, I have never seen the government offer to pay for things my insurance company didnt cover?

Its called unemployment insurance for a reason...

I am a self employed contractor, I cant even get unemployment insurance, I have had very little work this winter, and as a result, I am currently making $2.01 an hour waiting on tables in a restaurant.

I just dont know why people cannot find some sort of work???? I think it is better for me and for the economy for me to be a waiter, as opposed to me having my unemployment benefits increased by taking tax payers money and basically giving it away in a hand out.

If I had insurance, maybe i would hold out, spend more of my time looking for contractor work, and if the government was going to increase the amount of time I could collect, then i would probably hold off from taking that waiter job until the cash finally ran out..... its like the leaking dam, all you are doing is giving someone money to delay the inevitable.

(V): Better a poor happy one parent family then an rich unhappy, uncaring two parent family

You should have left your sentence right there...

The Usurper:

yet reacting upon itself finally, sort of crumbling under its own weight.

Im pretty sure it was detonated by a vast right wing government conspiracy

rod03801:
Many do it because they like the effects, for whatever reason.

That may be true, but what made them try it in the first instance? There has to be some underlying reason that one ever takes that first hit or drink or whatever it is, might there be some underlying abuse that caused that?

rod03801:

I don't fall into one of your cute little labeled "liberal", "conservative" boxes.


I always get a good chuckle over those kinds of comments.... there is no such being as one who is truly non partisan

Yes, some can be fiscal conservatives and social liberals, or some combo like that... but to not be some form of either????

The funny thing, really, is that most of the people who do make statements like that, think it is a good thing... "oh, not me, I am an independent thinker, I dont fall into any categories.... blah blah blah"

when the reality is, they are saying they dont have any real convictions at all

I have always maintained that I prefer a far left liberal nut case who is willing and able to stand up for their beliefs and admit them and back them up, than some middle of the road fence sitter, who floats around the world like an amoeba in the ocean..... but thats just me

Artful Dodger:

And we also know that our "representatives" will spend our money very easily - and they can't be trusted. Even if they could be trusted, "spreading the wealth around" amounts to theft.

..... a good example we all might remember..... the stimulus package Bam just signed? Billions to increase welfare, and billions more to extend unemployment insurance (yes insurance) benefits!

rod03801: I think the point of debate here... Is it the drug abuser who brings himself down because of his drug abuse, or is it the person who is already down, who turns to drugs?

Seems like liberals are going to say that drug abuse is a symptom of a depressed life, and the conservatives are going to say that drug abuse is a cause of a depressed life?

Artful Dodger: hey, i read the last one first.....I am poor.. yes, AD, i am poor!!!

The Usurper: not sure where to begin here....

You seem to tell us that conservatives are wrong somehow because we dont take into account changes like evil corporations and the federal reserve, in our society since our countries founding, but you dont seem to explain in what way we dont take them into account, nor do you explain in what way liberals have taken them into account in a better way?

You make it sound as if liberals are just a more modern thinking conservative, that you have taken conservatism to a new and higher and better level?


As for the "simplistic" part..... we dont say that if you dont work you shouldnt eat... we say its just not the responsibility of the federal government to feed you!

Conservatives also do not deny any child education or health care, no matter their parents situation....

Artful Dodger:

There's a psychology behind it and for many women, it's like being caught in a trap. It seems easy to outsiders that escape is a logical choice. But it's like having one's legs in a cement bucket. You can't move



AD, you are sounding much like one of those liberals too

Bernice:

I don't judge them I just won't give any sympathy when they choose to stay and get beaten.......you make your bed, you lie in it.......

Bernice, you are starting to sound like a good American Conservative...

The Usurper: I am not a bible thumper....

my point to you again, is not that some may need the care from others, but where do you see in our constitution that it is the responsibility of the federal government to give this kind of care?

It comes down to democrats/socialists, who believe the federal government should be more and more responsible for the people, and take more and more of our money to do it or conservatives/libertarians, who believe that the federal government should have a very limited role in our lives.

There are many ways in which a society can and should take care of its poor and others that need caring for... but where is it written that society = federal government?

Also, like AD was trying to point out, it is more likely that the so called bible thumpers give far more to charitable concerns than you and your socialist friends ever thought about giving?

Just re reading some of your comments... it is clear that you have a complete misunderstanding of our (conservative if you will) views.... is it not possible for us to have compassion yet still believe that it is not the federal governments responsibility????

Its really that simple, we want to take care of the poor, we just dont want our federal government to be the solution!

The Usurper:

I would imagine, for those who truly pity the poor, it would be all of the above.


Well, I would argue thats where you are wrong.

Thats the whole point!

Conservatives arent against helping the poor... we are against it being what our federal government was established to do???


Our federal government was established to police us, and give us infrastructure, and courts, and military etc....

The Usurper:

Should we pity the poor?

So, maybe we should pity the poor... but the real debate is, is it the established goal of our founding fathers for the federal government to pity the poor???

The Usurper:

Should we pity the poor?

the point here, we are debating is, what is the federal governments role in all of this?

Surly the poor are to be considered, but are they a local or state or private concern? Because it seems clear that the federal government was not created to take care of poor people!

ustica tnp: I have seen keith olberman, many times, he is a dolt, an ex jock reporter, and his political opinions are just that, his opinions..... I happen to disagree with him almost 100% of the time.


Explain to me how socialism is a "new" direction for this country? I guess it does count as change, but a change for the worse for sure.

Artful Dodger:

Artful Dodger: Why do you keep asking these questions????

You already know the answers.... when the shoe was on the other foot, we were in here day and night, trying to defend and explain... the silence today from those same whining liberals is almost deafening!!!

Artful Dodger: Why do dems even want to control the masses in the first place?

I think it is a power issue.... they claim to be for the people and the little guy, but the reality is, everything they do is about giving them, the politicians, more power and more influence and more money, hardly what you would expect, or is it?

Artful Dodger: Thats the change.... its funny how they think Socialism or communism is somehow "change"?

Hehheheheheheheh......


The stimulus must be working already, Pelosi is off to Europe for 8 days!!! YAHOOIE!!!!

"oh, the democrats are for the little guy..."

I can see them now.... "okay, we gave the unemployed a few more weeks, and the welfare and food stamps people get a bit more too... (yeah thats all stimulus, not) we have done our jobs, lets all pat ourselves on the back, and reward our great efforts with a nice trip to Europe!"

Yup, them dems... all about the little guy....

Tuesday:

and I love what Awesome said. Amen. :)

Amen??? Really???

I can agree that a good moderator should be like a good umpire, and not be noticed or become more of the story than the story itself....

But AD has not actually even moderated one single post... how could he, as a moderator, be any less intrusive????

Typical liberal mindset, really.... ignore facts, logic and any common sense!

...and dont come back to me complaining that I say everything is a liberal blah blah blah... you put an "amen" to what awesome said, yet what he said actually makes no sense at all when you apply facts and logic and common sense to it, same with 90% of liberal arguments

I haavent heard one liberal on here before the election say anything other than "Obama is for change" or some other tiresome blah, nothing ever of any substance, but why not?

Because you dont even know what that change is meant to be..... if anyone would at least come out and say it, say "I vote democrat because I think the best thing for this country is for the government to take as much money from its citizens as they need to do everything for us and to control our lives in every way possible, and Navcy Pelosi and harry reid know more about what is best for me than i do, that is what I think is best for our country"...

Well, I could respect that, and I would at least know that you have put some though into it, and you have some ideals etc....

But when you "Amen" an asinine statement, and vote for some fantasy changes, well, thats liberalism in a nut (case) shell

Artful Dodger:

From the Cafferty File: Is stimulus plan "theft"?


Nobody needs to comment.... everyone knows the dems have been itching to rob us all blind for many years now, there is nobody who is not a socialist or even the communist party loves the dems right now, who can defend this "stimulus", its a joke, the average tax payor is going to have an extra 13 bucks a week????

Bernice:

I wonder what the theories will be about the fires that are burning good Australian residents to death will be.

Thats an easy one for me... its the do good greenies to blame for this one

I saw a poll where two thirds of the people think that one third of the people are ignorant idiots.:

Snoopy:


I dont know who is worse, a woman who begs for cash on a website after having 8 more kids on top of the 6 she already cannot afford... or the 2 publicists, who are going to reap a percentage of all the cash they can rake in for her celebrity!!!!

Charles Martel: Didnt you hear??? Wall street bought on the rumor, and sold on the news, its a good sign! LMAO!

Yeah, thats so good, they bought the DOW all the way up to 8000, on the rumor.... yup, wall street really loves this package all right!

The Usurper:

She spoke her convictions & conscience and paid the price. That's a courageous human being and there aren't many like her

You call it courageous to make unsubstantiated accusations... i call it a sign of ignorance, and plain stupidity!

My suggestion would be to not align yourself too closely with a woman like Rosie. I would also guess that Rosie LOVES Obama!

Just because she happens to be on the same side of one issue with you, dont make the huge leap that she could even come as close to making a rational argument for her case as you have.

Rosie is a blow hard, loud mouth who hates George Bush.... she is nothing more than that and never will be! That she agrees with you on one issue, I agree too, the Donald Trumps hair looks stupid, but neither one of us should be using her to champion our fight.