Looking at the Statistics, White has a pretty good advantage it looks like.

Would it make since to possible make draws count as a black win?

BIG BAD WOLF: It's not hard to prove that with best play, black has at most a draw, so white showing an advantage in the statistics isn't quite a surprise. However, giving black a win in case of a draw might tilt the balance too much into blacks favour - although the current statistics show otherwise. A swap rule, or a bid for the right of going first might be possible too.

BIG BAD WOLF: I think it's the same problem as with the classic Five in Line. But since this game is almost unknown, I am afraid nobody created a more balanced variant yet. It requires some experiments and analysis [which is what I have no time for].

A bid system would be cool - That is bid how many points you are willing to "give" your opponent so you can start with white.

Or make it standard - that is black automaticly gets X amount of points handicap to start.

Of course I have not played enough to know how much of an advantage it is.

But very cool game Fencer. Once game which I would not be afraid to say a "bigger board" version would be good. (10x10 maybe) - but we can wait awhile for that.

(or if you want to get real creative - a 3 player version with 3 colors of stones.)

i dont think white has as much advantage as you might think.. Its all about tempo. i can gain tempo by allowing my oppnent to get 3 straight.

but on the other hand there is a definite advantage to white early on b/c no tricks have yet to be discovered so basically white is at an advantage, and many people will have slightly over rated ratings.. b/c they will only play white and not black. here is my suggestion ....i wish there was a way to not accept players into a ratings standing until they have played an equal amount with each color! lets say 13w/white and 12w/black..this will keep things honest.

Nothingness: I think white has a huge advantage - with perfect play, white cannot lose. Here's a proof.

Suppose a game is won for black (the second player) - that is, there is a strategy for black that always wins, regardless of how white plays. Then white starts by playing a random stone (this is never a disadvantage), and then adopting the strategy that wins the game for the second player. If that strategy requires placing a stone where white already had played a stone - white plays the stone at a random position. But that means white wins, contradicting the hypothesus that the game would be won for black. Ergo, there is no winning strategy for black if white doesn't make a mistake.

This 'proof' works for any game where placed stones don't move, and don't influence placement of other stones, and where having a stone at a certain position is never a hindrance. Examples outside PahTum include Five in Line, and Hex.

i disagree due to the random placement of holes...this changes the game. allowing of a 3 connect you can ignore the 3 to ititiate somewhere else. in five line and connet 4 first move wins with first move and perfect play. not here.

Nothingness: Holes have nothing to with it. Ignoring the three to initiate somewhere else has nothing to do with it either. And I didn't say that with perfect play the first player wins. With perfect play, the first player cannot lose. Regardless of the arrangement of the holes.

What's essential is that all moves are always possible - that is, no move is required for a particular move (as with connect-4 for instance), nor do certain moves prohibit other moves (as for instance with chess). Furthermore, there's never a disadvantage of a move: a stone placed is <em>always</em> better than having no stone on that position. But that means that if there would be a strategy for the second player to win, the first player can adopt that strategy - by just playing a random first move, and then adopting the strategy that gives the win to the second player. Ergo, with perfect play, the second player cannot win.

yes holes have everything to do with it.. otherwise they would never have been put into the game. it makes the game more random. If for example White makes his first move into a place whre noo pts can be made black now has the the first move technically. ---- since there is no threat. so in this instance perfect play has everything to do with it. Tempo is the key. if you do not know what tempo means here it is, as basic as i can keep it. tempo means you have the intitiative, you can gain this away from white if one of these things happen the hole selection is not favorable to white and if black sarifices small 3pt moves to set up one 10 pt move. which is quite easy. hole placement is everything if it were an open game with no holes i'd agree white will always WIN or at least not ever lose. If black plays to mimic then balck cant win either.

Nothingness: Well, you are wrong, but there's no point in making this a 'yes', 'no' argument.

Go read a book about the mathematics of games.

$10 on AbigailII ;)

How random are the holes in numbers per games...
3, 5, 7 Is there a set max?

Daniel Snyder: 3, 5, 7, 9.

Yea, if White plays smartly (does not make first move in an area which can't grow into longer strings of pieces), then white should almost always have the advantage.

I would like to see a board setup where white does not have the advantage - as long as they make a smart first move - not blocked it - not next to an edge - in an "open" intersection where he can grow in multiply directions.

Thats why you deleted a game where I was black.. put the money where the mouth is..!!! ironically I majored in math in college! LOL

Just make an option two play 2 games (one with white and one with black) and add the points made in both games to decide who wins. If both players have the same amount of amount just call itt a draw.

Remco.

Just make an option to play 2 games (one with white and one with black) and add the points made in both games to decide who wins. If both players have the same amount of amount just call itt a draw.

Remco.

Might put a little too much "luck" into the game, but while playing SueQ, she mentioned she first thought that the black squares moved around randomly each move.

That might be interesting. Computer randomly moves the squares to a different space on the board throughout the game.

SueQ beat me to the puch but i agree BBW. Could make the game less one sided and keep players from playing only one color to boost their BKRs.

When first reading the description for this game, I thought it would be tedious, not very interesting, and that Black would have little chance (stats at that time showed White winning about two-thirds of the finished games). I tried it anyway, and found much the opposite. The strategic play has a lot of appeal, and White's first move gives only a slight edge. Granted, there are many masterful players that are so good they will probably never lose moving first, but not nearly all play anywhere close to that level.

I have managed to win some games, albeit narrowly, with Black. I believe the trick for Black is to know when to block and know when instead to counterattack; that is, you may give up a line to White for the possibility of greater potential elsewhere.

I thought i was nuts.. thanks, Guys not that it will help, but i at least know i'm not bonkers..

Hmm, i just discovered of this board's existence and there was a really interesting discussion about what is the Pahtum-3to9* game? A white, a draw or a black wins game?
One answer can be given but not so clear.

Definitelly Nothingness was wrong! Pahtum is a white wins game OR a draw game! That means if white plays a perfect game then black can't win and can only achieve a draw.......Easy to prove**. AbigailII already did.......
The really interesting problem comes when you try to restrict this and to convert this to a stronger statement like if it is a white wins game or a draw.
I have not yet an answer, but i want to say that i have the impression that white's extra tempo is crucial! Since the directions that a 3-stone point can be build are 2, black can't force white not to create at least a 3-stone point at the end......It's easy to prove this also. But this doesn't prove that Pahtum-3to9* is a white wins game since we didn't prove that at the end black can't build a 3-stone point too.........

*Pahtum-3to9 = Pahtum game with 3 or 5 or 7 or 9 holes placed randomly at the first turn.

About this randomly: While the placement of holes should be randomly is it really in the Brainking's variation?
What i mean: I have never see a placement where a single playable square is surrounded by 4 holes or 3 holes while the playable square be at the edge of the board. Like this:
OXXXXXX
XOXXXXX
OXXXXXX
where the X=playable squares and O=holes
Can this position occur in Brainking's Pahtum?

**In a game that:
1)Is played between 2 players that execute alternating turns of moves
2)Is played by placing something(ex. stones) and staying there for the rest of the game unchanged, into any empty(meaning that no one has already played there) position of a specific finite number of positions that doesn't move or change during the game
3)It's true for every possible position, that if we make a move-1 for the side to move and we will have with perfect play a win or a draw with that move-1, then by making a random move-2, after playing move-1 (that means to play 2 times in our turn), then the result will not become worse by making this move-2. A win will remain a win and a draw will not become a loss

then in this game that has 1) and 2) and 3) valid
it is true that player that plays second CAN'T win!

Pythagoras: Shortly, what's your point? I am too tired to understand what you want me to do.

While the placement of holes should be randomly is it really in the Brainking's variation?
What i mean: I have never see a placement where a single playable square is surrounded by 4 holes or 3 holes while the playable square be at the edge of the board. Like this:
OXXXXXX
XOXXXXX
OXXXXXX
where the X=playable squares and O=holes
Can this position occur in Brainking's Pahtum?

Fencer: I think what Pythagoras means is how random is the placement of the non playable squares. Is it possible to have the A1 square be an open square where you can place a stone, but the A2, B1 and B2 squares are closed squares. Or to have any edge square such as D7 open but C7 and E7 plus D6 be closed squares.

It doesn't matter the size of the board. As long as it is finite black would always have the disadvantage......

Yes, it's absolutely random.

Pythagoras: Now, with Fencer's answer, I am sure you can work out how often it should happen ... looking foreward to hearing the result ... all the best :)

Nightstorm: your wish is almost granted

Oh good.......! Fencer said that before but i didn't see that before......

Thanks Hrqls, that shows it is random and can place a playable square in a non playable area.

I have added a link to the top of this page where you can practice Pah Tum against a computer.

Cool but the AI is veeeeeeeeery weak........I won the first 4 games and i didn't bother to continue.... I hope they will improve it.....

We are currently looking for a main mod for this board. Please contact me or other global moderators if you are intersted in this position. The names will be reviewed and a decision made.
Thanks!

How many points for 4 stones, I am only getting 7

WellyWales: (I know I answered you on the other board, but in case others look here with the same question)

You get a total of 10 points for 4 in a row. (You got 3 points for 3 in a row, then an additional 7 when you connected 5)

Thanks BBW :)

Starting March 13--Pah Tum
Global Pah Tum Championship

Scheduled start date is may 21. This is designed for players with over a 1400 BKR rating.

Global Pah Tum Championship #2

I find it time for
a new pahtoem tournament

pahtoem 2009 tournament

closing date 28/2/2009

any idea why I have no points in this game?
PahTum (Bwild vs. Petromil)
thanks

Bwild: Because you don't have a line of 3 or more stones? Only horizontal and vertical lines matter in PahTum.

AbigailII: ahh...its my 1st game and got cornfused with diaginal

AbigailII: thanks

Pah Tum is a bit unbalanced (white wins 55%, black 31% of the games).
Maybe it would be better if the players alternate in blocking squares, instead of blocking them randomly.

The number of blocked squares is determined randomly (3, 5, 7 or 9). Black starts to block a square, and black also blocks the last square. Then the game goes on as usual.

Alternatively use a swap rule: one player blocks the squares, then the other chooses a side. And equal points might count as a black win, to make the game draw-free.

Thom27:
I agree with you that white has a big advantage. My suggestion would be that black starts with 1 point. Something similar happens with go variations. This would mean a draw would count as a win for black and would make the % 54 to 46. A draw will be possible still but unlikely.