Tuesday: The RCC once ruled that we were the centre of the universe, then the centre of the solar system... despite that for this to happen the planets around us would have to travel like a pen on a spirograph!! The Bible has and always had at it's main point PHILOSOPHY... churches turned it into a religion.

The first decent telescope was only built a few centuries ago. Long after the Bible was written.

Mousetrap: Well, the rumours are that the far side of the moon is out of bounds to us humans... And that a Canadian ex defence minister blew the cover by stating.. "there are aliens and we have talked/met them" yet the USA wants to cover it all up speaks volumes.

I think some governments are worried about how people will react to us not being the big cheese's in this galaxy/universe.

Area 51 breaching.....interesting LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Nt0jgGNek

Bernice: Mostly it was the photos and the fact that it was still an incredible risk to take at that time. All Politics. My dad used to blame evrything on the Russians even the weather

Mousetrap: wasn't the doubt brought about by the "AREA51" I seem to remember something about that...maybe I am wrong, but I was like you, as time went on it became more and more of a doubt in peoples minds...

(V): You never know

Tuesday: There,s loads of stuff out there on the net. Its easy to find. I was a firm beliver. I even watched it on TV as a kid. It is only last few years that the more I read and think about it that I have doubts. Dont supposed we will ever know. At least not in our life time anyway. I love reading about the shuttle missions. Even been to the USA to see a launch. Absolutely fantastic!

Bernice: Cleaning up garbage is a start,we Canadians are used to the typical "your cities are so clean" comments, it's almost considered a stereotype now.I think emmissions are the next mountain to climb.If I was a global warming naysayer, if losing the argument means cleaner air,I think I could live with that defeat

Jim Dandy: Not only that, but reuse as much as possible. We've become too much of a throw away society!!

The cold frame I'm making.. 99% recycled material. Even the plastic is what a local yard chucks away (law says they cannot reuse stuff they have removed to make a new build) not only is it very cheap, but the plastic is 6 layers deep giving very good heat retention.
Just takes a little imagination.

Jim Dandy: last weekend was "Clean up Australia" day...it is held every year, is voluntary for helpers and is a great success and has been for about??? 20 years.

http://www.cleanupaustraliaday.org.au/about/about-the-event/history

(V): I'm with astute broadcaster Bill O'Reilly on this one.Even if global warming is a natural cycle,cleaning up the earth isn't a terrible idea anyway.I mean honestly,I can't think of a better error in judgement.

Artful Dodger: The only way we can be sure it's a purely natural cycle is for us to stop producing the gasses that can cause harm.

Even if it is a natural cycle it has to be that our impact on the environment is part of the math and science. If nature is producing 99% of our weather, we are still responsible for 1%... The old adage of a straw and camels back comes to mind.

Mousetrap: Well, the rocket launched.. they went somewhere. Maybe the aliens watching us invited them in for coffee!!

Mousetrap:  That "theory" has been debunked many times over.

Tuesday: It's right up there in the list of conspiracy theories, some say Stanley Kubrick was involved.

(V): The more I read about the first mission to the moon the less I believe they ever really went.

Artful Dodger: Going to the moon was so abound with risks. The % chance of a fatal failure was pretty significant. The science was not 100% as it was no-one had done it before. Yet your country still sent people and spent billions on what could have been a complete failure.

It's called risk assessment, at what point is the risk of an devastating event worth being ignored. It's like with an asteroid strike, the probability of being hit is very, very small. Yet we still plan in case that one in a trillion comes to be a certainty. Billions are spent on watching the skies as the cost of a big strike is unmeasurable.

We are talking about probability.

I've worked on a secret project that by all accounts will not be needed, yet the cost was worth it in case a certain countries troops were put in a situation that the need of the device that was made would save lives on the battlefield.

DNA.. so many women/men I've seen on a certain prog state that there is no way 'X' is biologically related and they have been 90% sure.. even to putting another name/not putting the name, etc on the birth certificate... ie you say that the science on global warming is flawed... ok, there is a chance that we will not have any major significant extreme weather changes.

But who's life would you bet on that? Which resource could you live without? We are already facing problems via India through over farming draining the water table of a significant food production area in aid of cheap food.

As for weather here.. when we had snow forecasts recently, they could not be 100% on how much and where it would fall. But the % chance still led to warnings.

Artful Dodger:   Nonsense.  If you saw a tornado & were 90% it would hit your house, I hope you would take precautions.

Artful Dodger: I've seen 90% sure that he's the daddy. Also I remember on the Apollo missions.. there was a fair chance the astronauts would die. They still went.

Plus.. from a personal point of view (as recognised by many thinkers) you can apply a 'weight' or certainty factor to an idea or thought.

So much science and invention has come from trial and error, refining ideas as you go along. The electric bulb is such an invention... it took many attempts to find a filament that would work.

As for sats... yes they have a use, but local weather stations, buoys, ships provide much more detailed info. Perhaps it's because you can't see millimetre detail from space as far as I know.

Artful Dodger: When I was at school I was told electrons went around the nucleus of an atom in nice circles.

Now thanks to quantum physics I hear that an electron's orbit is unpredictable and that the electron can be in several places at once. There was no universe in the 40's just our galaxy, nothing could escape a black hole.. now they have been found to be an essential part of a galaxies development.

Quite frankly we do not have the computing power or understanding, the monitoring equipment and enough locations to be 100% .. The science on global warming is 90% certain, but at the same time it is causing a move to an idea that such as the native Indians in the USA (as well as others) have had for a long time. We are caretakers of the world, we borrow it from our children.

Tuesday:  I agree with you here.  Dan keeps harping on the fact that we can't be "100% sure"  That may be true, but the vast majority of scientist say that man made pollution is the cause of much global warming & causing the polar caps to melt.  We don't need 100% agreement to start slowing these environmental changes.  Cap & trade, which Conservatives & big industry are so afraid of, is one way to reduce this problem for our kids future.

Artful Dodger: Some are interlinked by the matter of the chemicals involved. If the use of CFC's had carried on we might end up with days where we cannot go outside due to high solar radiation.

Some of the chemicals damage both. Plain and simple. Keeping a healthy environment can lower the possible risk of our carbon footprint.

It's not rocket science to see that.

Artful Dodger: But it's not just about carbon, there are other chemicals as well. Wasn't it 6 gases that are on the hit list. Some of them are potentially worse then CO2, considering the toxicity of them and that they are more persistent then CO2.

Though you might disagree with the boffins, you cannot deny that we are benefiting. I see now that new systems of dealing with rubbish end up in energy being produced from the waste.

.... All because we got worried over landfills.

I am going to moderate all post for a while until things cool down a bit, any remarks that don't specifically relate to the political topic will either be moderated or deleted without notice until further notice

Artful Dodger: ROFL.....

Artful Dodger:  Certainly u & I have no personal feud.  But there is an undercurrent of that stuff going on.  IMHO it needs to be curbed some.

Artful Dodger: ONE sub species of polar bear is on the increase.. that is the fact, the others are too hard to count or either still dropping or stable.

The effect of banning hunting is to be considered in any reporting. That is a fact.

Artful Dodger: But have they distorted the info.

They did with the polar bears

Artful Dodger: Nahhh it's a common political trick used by all parties. Nick Griffin is great at it... he is in no way liberal

Artful Dodger: Sorry, I question at my speed, not at the speed of XY & Z.

And at the last count in my analysis, it was the level of effect of man-made pollutants.

Regardless of being "current" or not any effect is going to remain the same unless actual physical changes are made.

Artful Dodger:   Was not refering to that, Dan.  I was talking about personal feuds being carried over here.

Ferris Bueller: I wish!!

Artful Dodger: So is the anti-liberals.

"That's way you can ignore dealing with the question at hand. "

So are the anti-liberals.

Artful Dodger:  "Pointing the finger isn't productive."  Right!  So both parties should cease doing it.  Maybe new laws should be put in place to stop such things from being tacked on.

Artful Dodger: Rubbish, the % effect is the debate. I mean.. CFC's. Do you doubt the problem they were having on the ozone layer, or the time limit on how long we had to change our ways?