(V): has i said if you say so
thou i rather wait until everything is out in the open before making a judgement myself
i found over the years its to easy to JUDGE someone without knowing all the FACTS

Snoopy: I know so, that ... or the police inspector friend I was talking to earlier was wrong... and I doubt that very much with his experience.

(V): if you say so

Snoopy: The only difference in the end is what the policeman is charged with. Even if it is not manslaughter it is still assault. So he'll end up in jail and/or dismissed from the force no matter what the forensics say.

(V): and the KEYWORD in your last statement is IF
so has i keep saying lets wait and see what emerges
this is going to go on for along time
so why not wait and see what the next post mortem says

i agree with you on one point thou the BOSSES of the police on the ground really needs to be investigated

because i would not like to be herded into a small space and be denied basic rights food water etc
that part of the operation was a real disgrace

Snoopy: No, I don't.. But after a recent talk with a POLICE INSPECTOR who is friendly with us about the matter, I know that even if it was an accident it is still manslaughter if the forensic shows the shove killed him.

I was talking with him on the phone today about it!!

(V): and of course you know everything about law
you sound has if you hang the guy before the judge finishes the hung

and im not the one who is arguing im saying for the LAST TIME lets here all sides before making JUDGEMENT

there is much more to this story than even you know
there is much cctv footage that is being looked at that we have never seen

Snoopy: I'm sorry, but even if the bloke said anything, the reaction of the policeman (and this the law) is still liable to be charged and convicted of manslaughter. Even if the bloke had called him some very nasty names it does not matter, the charge under UK LAW is still manslaughter if and this is the only if in the matter... the forensics comes back and shows it was that shove that caused the man to die or not.

Even if it wasn't the cause, the police officer broke the law. PERIOD.

You can argue about this all you want, but I am going by the law as laid down by the courts and our government.

Argue with them if you want... but they will tell you the same.

(V): wrong we had the police.s version
what i said let hear what the officer who pushed him has to say before passing JUDGEMENT

Snoopy: We had the police version... They tried blaming it on the protesters before this video evidence came up. IMHO innocent police don't go blaming others, it's only those with something to hide that try and hide their mistakes.

(V): and has I SAID youve no idea what was SAID seconds before he was pushed so obviously he couldnt of been arrested and has everyone knows theres always 2 sides to every story so isnt it better to have the policemans version to before passing JUDGEMENT

Snoopy: As I said... If he had said something that broke the law before hand, then he'd been arrested .. period.

(V): maybe the video was clear but has i said the video had NO SOUND youve no idea what was said in the seconds before he was hit

many ppl have lost it by other ppl calling them names and this may well be the case WE JUST DONT KNOW

of course has a policeman he should of shown more restraint if that was the case and all that will come out in due course

Snoopy: Not in this case, no hype. I'm going by what I've seen, the video was quite clear. And that there are other cases being brought forward and the IPCC are now looking into what happened and the G20 protests due to the amount of video footage taken by people and from CCTV images. The IPCC head man is also concerned that a number of policeman had removed their ID number to avoid being recognised easily and that frontline supervisors did not stop this!!

I'm not judging all the police. But from what I've seen there needs to be change so that officers act with the respect they are supposed to, and that the police force as a whole does not lose respect due to a few bad apples.

(V): we only have this small clip of film
we dont know if anything was said from this guy or police
we will have to wait for this to come out
im not condoning the police in any way so surely its best to wait until all the facts are out than to judge the guy or the police

bottom line you dont know anymore than 99.99% of the rest of the UK you WERNT THERE
your only going on what the TV and newpapers are telling you and we all know those are well hyped up to sell or gain viewers

Czuch: Proof being??? I'm still waiting.

about 3 hours left for you to find something, otherwise you are just (being blunt) waffling on.

(V): How many other people live and work in this area anyway??? How many other people got in a situation where they got shoved by riot police while innocently walking home from work??? Were all these other people just extremely lucky, or do you think that the average local person knew of the situation, and was able to avoid a situation like this?

bottom line... we have a personal responsibility for many of the situations we find ourselves in, weather it be building a house in a high fire danger area or living below sea level in a hurricane zone, or putting ourselves in close proximity to riot police in a volatile situation... play with fire and you might get burned.... right or wrong, this guy got himself burned

...Hey, I am a liberal environmentalist, and I dont believe we should clear out dry underbrush from our forests floors, but I am going to build my new house here anyway, now we have this huge wildfire, and all our homes are being burned down, howd that happen

....hey, I live below sea level and now a hurricane has flooded me out.... howd that happen anyway

(V): You play with fire your gonna get burned... I dont blame the flame, the flame cant hurt you if you dont get close enough to it...

I personally would keep my distance from crazy riot police in a volatile area and situation...

I personally know big crazy drunks, who will slug you with a bat if you simply look at them wrong, or they think you did... I avoid any contact with these types at any cost, including not staying in a bar when they are there....

This guy had a look like "these guys cant mess with me, I am not doing anything wrong, who do they think they are trying to tell me what to do, I will show them whos boss of who", and now he is dead..... dead right maybe, but still dead


Like the guy from Saudi Arabia who just cant figure out how he ended up in Guantanamo prison after he entered a war zone in Iraq

Pedro Martínez: Neither do I, a guy died under suspicious circumstances.... That's not funny.

Czuch: I don't quite understand what's so funny about it.

Czuch: I'm sure the family have a different view from you. And I've still yet to see you provide that he did anything to provoke them.

4 hours left to find something to prove you are right Czuch.

Where is your evidence?

(V): they were a unit off the metro.. well known for being violent beyond what is needed

Proves even more what an idiot this guy was...

Its like provoking the known local crazy drunk guy in a bar, he may not have any right to beat the crap out of you, but that isnt going to make it feel any better when he does it

Bernice: ?? Ahhh right. sure??!!?? You just implied that I had experience of Bali 'ladyboys'... I just told you know I didn't... clearly.

Is that ok with you?

(V): I didnt say you were "caught out" as you put it, but there doesn't seem to be a subject that you cant enlighten us all on....

Czuch: Czuch.... do your research on the SPG.

And to clarify some info, the metropolitan police are not the SPG, they were a unit off the metro.. well known for being violent beyond what is needed, and as the jokes were of the day.. bigoted thugs, and that you could not join unless you were a bigoted thug.

Bernice: No Bernice, never been caught out by a trans gender, you might know someone who has being closer to the area, but I don't.

Bernice: The first was an initial post mortem, after the video evidence they did a second more detailed examination, and now they are doing an even more detailed examination of the body.

Bernice:

Czuch: hahaha....there are many a man been caught up in the wiles of the extremely pretty party girls of Bali.....and adams apple is the dead giveaway really heheheheh

(V) might have some more information on them for you as well

Pedro Martínez: thanks Hun :)....Metro Police and SPG appear to be one and the same - a group made up for special occasions.

(V): So even worse then... this guy was operating like this with Special police types on patrol???

My grandmother also used to say... mess with fire and you might get burned.... but like the good ol suicide bomber, maybe it was worth the effort?

Bernice: Sarong party girls... hahah i have been to Bali, and I know those types, I also remember many of them were actually boys.... strong hands and an Adams apple come to mind

Bernice:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Patrol_Group

(V): you are very knowledgable about something you knew nothing about LOL....



lordy your system is as bad as ours....2 independant persons and both forensic pathologists and two different results....one with the name Patel.....that puts you on guard immediately ROFL........

I read the story and he appears to have been a very sick man before this incident, not that that is an excuse for what happened of course.

you say they werent regular police officers and yet the story says they were Metropolitan Police Officers....and please clarify what is/are SPG....Ive googled and get all sorts of hotels, sarong party girls but nothing to do with what you are talking about....but google gives you your own countries bits....I cant get english information.

Artful Dodger: No, he was on his way home. Again, you are not in full knowledge of the facts and jumping to a false conclusion. These were not regular police officers.

Maybe you should look up the SPG.

He was walking away and no breakage of the law by the man has been stated.

I'll give you 20 hours also.

Oh, btw.. there are two other cases of assualt by the 'SPG' being investigated.. one involving a back slap and a baton accross the little womans legs.. just for being mouthy over who they were being treated.

And that they denied protesters basic rights (water, food and the loo) is also being investigated.

The police are not above the law.. period. Thankfully those days are over... mostly.

Czuch: but you don't know. So you cannot say he did. You are just assuming.

20 hours left...

Czuch:I've seen that sort of shuffle in my students when they are acting defiant.  It's like saying, "I'll get there when I get there." 

The cop said, "Here, let me help you move a bit faster." 

Artful Dodger: he was not complying with the officer. He was being a jerk about it. It was a tense situation and he was playing a game. So he's not entirely innocent


Hey... want to join me in the elite CIA clairvoyant unit????

Pedro Martínez: Like I said, the guy is an idiot then... you dont have to be a clairvoyant, just know what an average person under average situation should do....

If I am trying to walk my way home from work, and that is my sole agenda, and there are a gang of police in full riot gear, and you are in a known volatile area, most prudent people would figure out a way to stay out of the way... find a different route or move a bit faster or whatever it would take... a prudent person would not likely just stroll along with hands in pockets like that in a close proximity to the police.... as far as i know too, the police dont like people with hands hiden like that, they get wary that a gun or hand grenade or something might come into play....

Again, the UK is probably different, but here in the police state of the US, that is our standard of proof, what would a normal prudent person be expected to do or how would they behave in a given situation?

The guy might only be guilty of being an idiot... and the police is only guilty of being an idiot too....

(V):
What actions? Having his hands in his pockets and walking off home?


Yes, he was not complying with the officer.  He was being a jerk about it.  It was a tense situation and  he was playing a game.  So he's not entirely innocent.  But the officer still over reacted. 

Czuch: I admire your deduction abilities. You should be working for CIA as a clairvoyant.

Pedro Martínez: I started my whole discussion with the assumption that our 2 laws are similar, and until now, nobody contradicted this... sorry


so this officer is guilty of pushing someone that got in their way, he will probably then get suspended, but not manslaughter, IMO

the guy is still an idiot, and I still think his intent was to provoke them, it seem sure that it was more than just a guy walking his merry way home, blind to anything else going on around him, unless maybe he was high on drugs or alcohol..

Czuch: OK, but who cares about your Police Country in this particular case. This happened in the UK, where non-compliance with a request of a police officer (no matter if the officer requests you to move faster or to jump out of a window or to quack while jumping on your left leg) is not a crime and it's not against the law. Why would he think about some twisted US laws when walking home from work?

(V): I dont know anything for sure, looks to me like this bloke was"taunting" the police by being a bit belligerent and in their way....

maybe they never did give him an order to move along or to do anything... still my guess is that this shove did not cause this guys death... I also still believe no matter what happened, this guy was a dumb ass, and it doesnt look to me like he was just trying to make his way home from work, unless he was too drunk to make his way in a straight line and in an orderly way, the guy seems out of it to me?

Czuch: You know he broke the law... please show me where he broke the law? Any evidence of non compliance?? Nothing has come up in the news. In fact they tried blaming it on the protesters....

I'll give ya 24 hours to find anything

Pedro Martínez: These are obviously police in a riot control mode, it was a tense time in a volatile area... but regardless, here in the US it is against the law to not obey any command from a police officer... we dont get to decide which commands we think are valid or not... they say to move on and you move on, they say faster, you move faster...

now, just because I have broken a law doesnt give them the right to use excessive force against me, or maybe they should have arrested him instead of trying to force his compliance, but when you say he has broken no laws, you are not correct (if this were US laws anyway)

Maybe he is dead right.... ask him if being alive right might not be better?

Czuch:
He was non compliant to a request from a police officer.... that is illegal

That is illegal only in countries where the Police are above the law, just as (V) aptly pointed out. In democratic countries, however, even the Police have to obey the rules.

(V): This guy broke the law by being non compliant with a police request.... they have a right to enforce compliance with force....

I am not the one who gave the government more control, I am mostly for less control, but we dont base what laws to break or not to break based on our individual desires... it is against the law to not comply with the commands of a police officer, it is not against the law for police to force compliance against someone ordered to comply

this guy was being an A hole for the purpose of pissing off the police, now he is dead..

my grandmother always asked me if I was better off being dead right???? ask the same to this poor slob...