anastasia: Thank you for coming to my defense, if not of my position on 9/11, at least against Artful Dodger's admittedly ad hominem style of debate. But don't be too hard on him. He has learned it from those he admires in the media, the Rush Limbaughs & Shaun Hannitys, etc. I certainly don't expect Dan or anyone else to believe my contention about 9/11 (that it was an inside job with terrible ramifications for America and the rest of the world), based on my bare assertion. It is a matter, however, worthy of deep & impartial investigation, which neither has been done officially nor privately by Dan or most people who post here. So how, in such a case, could they rationally agree with me? What I hope to do is stir enough interest that some (never all) will investigate for themselves. If I can't manage this, I have still honorably stood my ground & debated my point.

The discussion of politics DOES take thick skin! And one of the first obstacles one must overcome in debate is the irrational, yet effective (for unthinking people) tactic of Ridicule. This method is normally employed by those whose arguments are otherwise weak or, perhaps, nonexistent. Everyone has an opinion, but we ought to base our opinions on evidence, not so-called authority...if, that is, we are concerned with truth.

So please post your views, Anastasia, including, if necessary, your opinion that Artful Dodger's methods are sometimes less than fair. :o)

Artful Dodger: there have been many such law suits, especially in Pennsylvania and California most of them before the election were thrown out, I know some after the election have been allowed to go forward but haven't heard much of anything lately

<span>A lawsuit that accuses Congress of failing to investigate President Obama's birthplace before approving the Electoral College  vote giving him the presidency has been amended to include additional claims of rights violations, including unequal treatment, because Congress did such an investigation into GOP candidate Sen. John McCain.

Bernice: Thanks.  You are so right about that!  I stand corrected.  I've been watching some old History Channel programs about WWII and you're right to say that Britain and Australia have magnificent troops as well that have contributed, and continue to contribute to the betterment of our world.  God bless all our troops!  They sacrifice greatly on our behalf.  

Artful Dodger: and may I say, it isn;t only the us military, but there are also English and AUstralian HEROES who do a hell of a lot of good as well.....Please give credit where it is due.

EVIL al-Qaeda chiefs are raping young male converts to shame them into becoming suicide bombers, it emerged yesterday.

The intense social stigma and fear of more gay sex attacks leaves Muslims prepared to die.

But still they whine about the real heros (us military) that fights these thugs. 

climate change delusion

That's what psychologists are saying about a 17 year old that refuses to drink water.  Global warming is behind it.

Charles Martel: now it can be seen what happens when you let amateurs take over a professionals job...I couldnt believe some of the things I was hearing on our news this AM....

Well he sounded like a stumbling bumbling fool,, what was that ridiculous line about nurses not being able to read doctors prescriptions?That being his reason US has the worst health care system, and that poor school in SC where a train runs by and they have to stop teaching because of it??all his justification for the pork bill.. hopefully Rahm is running things ok.. and anyone notice how O kinda threw his VP under the Bus???

Czuch:   we need to increase global warming  !

Just watching something on the history channel.... seems there is nothing man or anyone can do to stop the coming of the next ice age

In fact, the best we can do is keep burning fossil fuels and that might slow the coming of the next ice age by up to 15,000 years....

Add to that, eventually the continent of Europe will collide with the east coast of the north American continent, putting a huge mountain range where NY city currently exists.... and ultimately the planet core will run out of fuel and the planet will simply die!

The Usurper:"Everyone believes in conspiracies."    thats rich, coming from you!! lol

anastasia:  I just don't think there's any merit and I won't waste my time debating crack-pot theories.    But if you guys wanna have a go at it, be my guest. 

The Usurper: What now then, with Obama as President? Does he expose this, or has he only pretended to be everything that Bush wasnt?

"GERRY": he can dance nekkies in the street for all I care

The Usurper:

So, what happened to the flight 77 then, if not crashed in the Pentagon?

anastasia: WHO WHO did you just post to TO LMAO:)))

"GERRY": who?

anastasia: Can't he have FUN TO.You seem to LMAO:)))

The Usurper: it doesn't matter if you are wrong,rigth OR indifferent about ANYTHING on this board...if you don't fit into AD's way of thinking,your wrong and he thinks your..oh lets see if I recall one of his put downs..."dumb as a rock" I believe is one.
I don't really believe 9-11 was a conspiracy,it WAS a tragidy tho for sure,but again,it doesn't matter because it doesn't fit HIS way of thinking,he will argur this post,I know,and chances are slim I will respond back....most of us have learned NOT to waster our time,you'll learn to,eventually

W OW 30 posts don't you guys sleep OH sorry MOM & ladies LMAO:))))

Actually, the contention is that no Boeing 757-200 hit the Pentagon, which means whatever hit the Pentagon wasn't American Airlines flight 77.

But most of you have better eyes than I. So I invite you, in these photos taken on site, to Hunt the Boeing!

http://www.asile.org/citoyens/numero13/pentagone/erreurs_en.htm

If anyone here can produce video footage or solid photographic evidence of a Boeing hitting the Pentagon or wrecked at the Pentagon, please by all means do so.

Case in point:  Rosie O'Donnell

The Usurper:  apology accepted 

Artful Dodger: “nutty theories”
“unknown nut cases”
“conspiracy theorists”
“a bunch of land in a Florida swamp”
“wacky theory”
“conspiracy nuts”

Well, Dan, these are nice emotional outbursts if somewhat ad hominem when referring to legitimate argumentation.

I apologize for my misconceived notion of comparing you to the distinguished ethical theologian, David Ray Griffin.

Bernice: I didn't know you aren't American. I won't trade insults. You are a citizen of the world, of course. :o)

Bernice:As there are dozens of books on 911 theories, I guess one should really read them all.  Amazon.com has 4 pages of books but most 911 conspiracy books are not sold on Amazon.  I would guess there are hundreds.  There are thousands of websites.  People love a conspiracy.

It just cracks me up that "experts" will disagree about a given idea but each one insists their view is the correct one.  They all say, "just look at the facts" but that is just plain stupid.  If two ideas conflict, either they are both false, or one is false and the other true.  So when competing ideas all claim to have "the truth" backed up by "the facts" one is better off going to the zoo and asking a baboon what he thinks.  He likely would stick his butt in your face which would make more sense than some of these wacky theories. 

The Usurper: is there something wrong with your mind/head/thinking.

Im not american, so what you are saying directly to me is all bulls---t....

I didnt realize you were so boring before, I always looked upon you as being a sort of "fairy" figure LOL....you know what that is? one who believes in fairies of both kinds LOL

I have little to no interest in nutty theories by unknown nut cases that ignore real evidence and promote falsehoods.  People can believe what they want.  I say those that claim there was "no plane" at the Pentagon are simply nut cases.  And anyone who claims that the inept Bush administration was able to pull off a major conspiracy, blow up several buildings, cause 4 airliners  full of US passengers to crash after get volunteers to hijack the planes and then crash them  (and commit suicide--I'm almost convinced now!) AND NOBODY ON THE INSIDE HAS COME FORWARD TO TELL THE "TRUTH."  Can you say Watergate???

I think these conspiracy theorists are the same guys that just bought a bunch of land in a Florida swamp too.  Yeah, and Randi has proven Jesus never existed (even tho there is more evidence of Jesus' existence than there is evidence that Randi exists). 

Ever notice how after hundreds of experts in their fields testify to the truth about 911 (debunking the nut cases) and some refuse to believes the experts.  But along comes a guy that studied at a Bible college, has a wacky theory, and they listen to him and hang on his every word.  Can you say gullible?

Seriously, conspiracy nuts are people who cannot think for themselves.  They are irrational.  Be amused by them, but don't take them seriously.  Think man, think.

Artful Dodger: :o)

I would only recommend you read Griffin before you gather your talking points.

Seriously Dan, just having re-read "The New Pearl Harbor," it reads like a book YOU would have written...the thorough research, the organizational skill, the lucid presentation of points, etc.

David Ray Griffin:
still promotes "no plane" hoax,
promotes Holocaust deniers as credible sources
distrusts the hundreds of eyewitnesses who saw Flight 77 hit the Pentagon or cleaned up the plane parts afterwards

Artful Dodger: lol

Bernice: Ok, politics.

Your government is using 9/11, which is a false-flag operation in common with a history of false-flag operations, as a Pretext for a global domination strategy (including the military control of space, as well as control of Eurasia by controlling the oil reserves in Central Asia) which is resulting in the deaths of 100s of thousands, if not millions, of innocent men, women & children in the Middle East...for starters. And you, as an American citizen, have a responsibility to know what your government is doing & why...and then, to participate in the process for or against, etc.

Is that political enough? :o)

Well at least now we know where you get your nutty ideas. 

lets talk politics.........

Everyone believes in conspiracies. After all, whenever two or more people secretly collude to perform an action which effects others not in the know, it is a conspiracy. In the case of 9/11, some believe the official conspiracy theory, according to which Osama bin Ladin & others colluded in a cave in Afghanistan to pull off a miracle & succeeded. Others believe the conspiracy lies closer to home, that bin Ladin is the scapegoat, etc. As such, the pejorative term "conspiracy theory", as it does not add qualitatively to the debate, ought to be set aside by all serious thinkers & inquirers.

Popular Mechanics

I hold in my hand a book written by David Ray Griffin (theologian with over 20 books published) a book entitled: "Debunking 9/11 Dubunking: An Answer to Popular Mechanics and Other Defenders of the Official Conspiracy Theory".

Griffin argues his case using evidence gleaned from architects, demolition experts, engineers, physicists, federal government employees from many agencies, firemen on the scene, eye-witness accounts, etc.

It is highly recommened reading, but here is one interesting quote about it:

"Professor Griffin is the nemesis of the 9/11 cover-up. This new book destroys the credibility of the NIST and Popular Mechanics reports and annihilates his critics." - Paul Craig Roberts, Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury during the Reagan administration

But I would first recommend Griffin's first two books on the subject: "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions about the Bush Administration and 9/11"; and "The 9/11 Commission Report: Omissions and Distortions".

Or you might just google David Ray Griffin and read some of his online articles, which are cogent, rational, and give you the gist of his arguments without purchasing a book.

But you might also want to read "Crossing the Rubicon" by Michael Rupert, which closely examines the drive for oil & global domination behind 9/11 and the so-called War on Terror.

Or you might want to read Barrie Zwicker's "Towers of Deception: The Media Cover-Up of 9/11." Or Webster Tarpley's "9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in the U.S.A." These are just a few recommendations. There are many books by many researchers on the market.

Or, if you hate reading (in which case you might be in a bit of trouble), there are dozens of quality DVDs which cover numerous topics related to 9/11 and its coverup.

What I am attempting to demonstrate is that, right or wrong, I (and many others) are not going off half-cocked or shooting from the hip. I am talking about legitimate research. I am talking about, not a litttle, but a wealth of information, a veritable mountain of evidence, indicating an inside job. I was frankly stunned when I began to look into it with an open (if somewhat skeptical) mind.

A GREAT site for serious researchers is History Commons (historycommons.org) where a complete 9/11 timeline has been gathered from mainstream media sources all over the world.

But use your common sense for a moment and just try to answer these simple questions (off the top of my head) about the fall of the Twin Towers:

1. Why did they fall at nearly free-fall speed?
2. Why did they explode & disintegrate on the way down, pulverizing all the concrete into dust & everything else into tiny fragments?
3. Why did they fall into their own footprints, rather than topple over?
4. Why were large projectiles thrown outward from the towers (in some cases hundreds of feet) on their way down?
5. Why were squibs filmed shooting out of lower floors during the descent (an indication of demolition)?
6. Why were explosions reported by numerous eye-witnesses, including firefighters?
7. Why, in the history of the world, before or since, has a high rise steel-framed skyscraper NEVER collapsed as a result of fire, yet on 9/11 in NYC not one but THREE towers supposedly did so (this includes WTC-7, a 47-story building that fell at 5:20PM)?
8. Why were domlition rings seen around the buildings as they collapsed?
9. Why was all the steel conveniently sliced into 30-foot segments (another sign of controlled demolition) which were immediately removed & sold to China and elsewhere for scrap-iron, rather than being examined?
10. Why was molten metal found still smoldering in the sub-basement levels of all three towers WEEKS after 9/11? Do jet fuel fires burn hot enough to create molten metal?

Those are just a few questions about a single point in the argument against the official conspiracy theory. Go and look at the videos for yourself. Read the eye-witness accounts, etc. Use your brain. The bottom line....if the towers were brought down by controlled demolition (and they were), it has to be an inside job.

Vikings:

Bernice:lol, I should update my post 

Vikings: hahahaha

Artful Dodger: You forgot that the levy's in N.O. were demolition ed by navy seals, a second shooter on the grassy knoll, Area 51, miniature cameras built into everyone's t.v.'s, and of coarse, the roadrunner paid off Acme

Artful Dodger: hahaha....I thought your "here" was going to show me a couple of BK members

Bernice:Well, according to some conspiracy theorists, Elvis is still alive, Katrina was started by a government controlled weather device, and the landing on the moon was faked in a Hollywood studio.   Look up on google and you'll find plenty of websites that claim the holocaust never took place.  (over 3 million hits)

Some of these same theorists have a membership here.    and here too!

Im just dissapointed that Barack Obama didn't rush to the aid of the american/world people around the twin towers.....

Ursurper....you have me lost....I thought we were talking Osama Bin Obama El Pres....how come it turned around to 911....where have you been the last 7 years?

I am joking people so dont jump on me please LOL

HAHAHAHA @ Vikings and AD..........

Vikings:

Artful Dodger: Rosie's gone but Mel Gibson and Julia Roberts have entered the room

Buy the book and learn the truth.