Ferris Bueller: Not so. Economists know clearly that Obamacare will do the opposite as was promised. Did you not read the link? It's a left wing websiite and in it the DEMOCRATS concede that the deficit will not go down and costs will not lower. Why are you denying your own party's report?

Artful Dodger:  Nobody promised that "ObamaCare" would result in cost savings or reduce the deficit miraculously overnight.  It is too early to pronounce it a failure.

Artful Dodger: Businesses don't collude today they say.....

Yeah right.. 1000's of firms in the UK were caught out price fixing.

Guess those economists don't get out much!!

FDR's policies prolonged Depression by 7 years, UCLA economists calculate

By Meg Sullivan August 10, 2004 Category: Research

Two UCLA economists say they have figured out why the Great Depression dragged on for almost 15 years, and they blame a suspect previously thought to be beyond reproach: President Franklin D. Roosevelt.

After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.

full article here: http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

New Deal or Raw Deal?: How FDR's Economic Legacy Has Damaged America
http://www.amazon.com/New-Deal-Raw-Economic-Damaged/dp/1416592229

Worth the read.

Artful Dodger: He led the USA till near the end of WWII.. His management of the USA economy helped the USA have the industrial strength to win it.

He's the only USA president to be elected for over 2 terms. He must have done pretty good.

"Media Nearly Silent as ObamaCare Proponents Drop Deficit, Cost Savings Claims
from NewsBusters.org - Exposing Liberal Media Bias by Lachlan Markay

It has now been five days since Politico's Ben Smith published a powerpoint presentation created by an amalgamation of powerful left wing interest groups, conceding that two of the central arguments for passing ObamaCare - that it will lower the deficit and will reduce health care costs - have failed. "

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0810/41271.html

**Isn't that part of the "sell" of Obamacare? That it would reduce health care costs (they are going up in huge ways) and that the deficit will lower (it too will go up!).

Not a surprise to most of us.

Jim Dandy: FDR was a progressive and it wasn't the NEW DEAL but the RAW DEAL. His policies were the sole reason for the depression lasting as long as it did. He didn't help America, he hurt it. It's a mystery why he is so revered by some. But likely it's because his image was manipulated by forces and they myth of his presidency being a good one persists despite the facts.

Franklin D. Roosevelt's Address to Congress January 6, 1941


In the future days, which we seek to make secure, we look forward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms.
The first is freedom of speech and expression -- everywhere in the world.

The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way -- everywhere in the world.

The third is freedom from want -- which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants -- everywhere in the world.

The fourth is freedom from fear -- which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor-- anywhere in the world.

That is no vision of a distant millennium. It is a definite basis for a kind of world attainable in our own time and generation. That kind of world is the very antithesis of the so-called new order of tyranny which the dictators seek to create with the crash of a bomb.

To that new order we oppose the greater conception -- the moral order. A good society is able to face schemes of world domination and foreign revolutions alike without fear.

Since the beginning of our American history, we have been engaged in change -- in a perpetual peaceful revolution -- a revolution which goes on steadily, quietly adjusting itself to changing conditions -- without the concentration camp or the quick-lime in the ditch. The world order which we seek is the cooperation of free countries, working together in a friendly, civilized society.

This nation has placed its destiny in the hands and heads and hearts of its millions of free men and women; and its faith in freedom under the guidance of God. Freedom means the supremacy of human rights everywhere. Our support goes to those who struggle to gain those rights or keep them. Our strength is our unity of purpose.

To that high concept there can be no end save victory

Pedro Martínez: Yes I do mention my sources. Just not all the time.. N' most people can see when I'm C&P.. just like they can see when others are doing it.

http://www.muhammad.net/other-scriptures-mainmenu-43/26-muhammad-in-the-bible/104-muhammad-in-the-old-testament.html

Here you are.. it was in my history

Tuesday: Nahhh... Implication.

(V): The post Ferris Bueller replied to was 100% copy and paste. You can't get “better” than 100%, can you? You don't even mention your source, making others believe the words are yours.

Pedro Martínez: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oShTJ90fC34

Pedro Martínez: I'm not the only one to use C&P.. in fact I use less then many.

Ferris Bueller: I agree with most of what V has to say here.

But (V) doesn't say much here. Copy and paste are his best friends.

Ferris Bueller: Bad times for Christianity. Thankfully it didn't work. As one friend once said to a JW on the door to door convert wagon... "Who are you to tell me how to believe in God?" ... One answered truthfully.. "we can't".

The likes of the Gnostics, Origen (a must read I feel) did survive thank God.. And they could never get at the Desert Fathers.

(V): Politicians depend on short memories.It struck me when the Chinese were mentioned in the Cantor propoganda video, that they would probably be very happy to see 3 trillion in taxation back in the kitty

Jim Dandy: We had tax cuts.. then they stopped. Now to pay our debt off.. which, the previous government hid the depth of .. everyone gets to pay an extra 2.5% on VAT.

My policy.. grow more food.

(V):   I wasn't planning to enter into this "debate" because I am not a scholar on the Bible or the Qu'ran.  In fact, I don't believe they are the final canons.  I agree with most of what V has to say here.  My views are Unitarian-Universalist who do not follow the traditional or Orthodox views about the Triune God.  People with my views were general cut off from the Christian debate in the 3rd Century when Constantine convened the Council of Nicea designed to form a singular religion of his state.  They declared the Triune viiew as the only legitamate view of God and branded anyone else as a heretic.  They also tossed any books in the Bible that contridicted what they called "prophesies".  People were also branded as heretics from that time on who did not believe that everyone who did not agree with their views were sent to eternal damnation.  Some of us survived, however.  Both Muslims and Christians take the latter view about their religion being the only true one, and that their Holy books are the final word make their world ripe for war over religion.  Both of their Gods descend from the birthline of Abraham, a fact which the extremist on both sides wish to delete from their history.

(V): It was fun watching McConnell try and stay on messege, while reality kept trying to rear its ugly head.

Jim Dandy: I can understand being a Republican he's moaning about Obama... but the tax cut is only a Bush pay off. To moan about 3 trillion dollars of extra income but moan about Obama spending 300 billion... where did he study maths??

Artful Dodger:   I do think Cantor & the Republicans in this video do make some sense about the debt.  I do care about it, but no one has a crystal ball.  I believe that the Administration is making some hard decisions about the spending.  Right now, they are trying to divert desaster by using gov't funds to help people who are falling through the safety net, and plug a hole in the dyke by saving things like teacher's job in poor states.  Unlike Libertarians, I believe that gov't must intervene at times.  My hope is that the deficit will start to regress as people are able to find permanent jobs.  But, I have no Crystal Ball either, & neither do Libertarians.  Unfortunately here, I think we have to live with a lot of ambiguity now.

is that after the 10 year period, the tax cuts were intended to be re introduced, with justification of how they would be paid for.That's 3 trillion dollars in lost revenue that needs to be balanced, if the Republicans are to look after their very rich friends

http://crooksandliars.com/media/play/wmv/17908/

GTCharlie: ..... VAT is getting hiked to pay for ours.. up 2.5% That and the application of some common sense... I'm glad we have a Conservative/Liberal coalition, it was the best result in terms of a government for the years ahead.

Artful Dodger: II. ALLAH AND HIS ATTRIBUTES

There are two fundamental points between Islam and Christianity which, for the sake of the truth and the peace of the world, deserved a very serious and deep investigation. As these two religions claim their origin from one and the same source, it would follow that no important point of controversy between them should be allowed to exist. Both these great religions believe in the existence of the Deity and in the covenant made between God and the Prophet Abraham. On these two principal points a thoroughly con- scientious and final agreement must be arrived at between the intelligent adherents of the two faiths. Are we poor and ignorant mortals to believe in and worship one God, or are we to believe in and fear a plurality of Gods? Which of the two, Christ or Prophet Muhammad, is the object of the Divine Covenant? These two questions must be answered once for all.

It would be a mere waste of time here to refute those who ignorantly or maliciously suppose the God as mentioned in Islam to be different from the true God and only a fictitious deity of Prophet Muhammad's own creation. If the Christian priests and theologians knew their Scriptures in the original Hebrew instead of in translations as the Muslims read their Quran in its Arabic text, they would clearly see that Allah is the same ancient Semitic name of the Supreme Being who revealed and spoke to Adam and all the prophets.

Allah is the only Self-Existing, Knowing, Powerful Being. He encompasses, fills every space, being and thing; and is the source of all life, knowledge and force. Allah is the Unique Creator, Regulator and Ruler of the universe. He is absolutely One. The essence, the person and nature of Allah are absolutely beyond human comprehension, and therefore any attempt to define His essence is not only futile but even dangerous to our spiritual welfare and faith; for it will certainly lead us into error.

The trinitarian branch of the Christian Church, for about seventeen centuries, has exhausted all the brains of her saints and philosophers to define the Essence and the Person of the Deity; and what have they invented? All that which Athanasiuses, Augustines and Aquinases have imposed upon the Christians "under the pain of eternal damnation" to believe in a God who is "the third of three"! Allah, in His Holy Quran, condemns this belief in these solemn words:-

"Because the unbelivers are those who say: 'Allah is one of three.' There is but One God. If they do not desist in what they say, a painful punishment will afflict those of them that disbelieve." (Quran Ch.5 v73).

The reason why the orthodox Muslim scholars have always refrained from defining God's Essence is because His Essence transcends all attributes in which it could only be defined. Allah has many Names which in reality are only adjectives derived from His essence through its various mani- festations in the universe which He alone has formed. We call Allah by the appellations Almighty, Eternal, Omnipresent, Omniscient, Merciful, and so forth, because we conceived the eternity, omnipresence, universal knowledge, mercifulness, as emanating from His essence and belonging to Him alone and absolutely. He is alone the infinitely Knowing, Powerful, Living, Holy, Beautiful, Good, Loving, Glorious, Terrible Avenger, because it is from Him alone that emanate and flow the qualities of knowledge, power, life, holiness, beauty and the rest. God has no attributes in the sense we understand them. With us an attribute or a property is common to many individuals of a species, but what is God's is His alone, and there is none other to share it with Him. When we say, "Solomon is wise, powerful, just and beautiful," we do not ascribe exclusively to him all wisdom, power, justice and beauty. We only mean to say that he is relatively wise as compared with others of his species, and that wisdom too is relatively his attribute in common with the individuals belong- ing to his class.

To make it more clear, a divine attribute is an emanation of God, and therefore an activity. Now every divine action is nothing more or less than a creation.

It is also to be admitted that the divine attributes, inas- much as they are emanations, posit time and a beginning; consequently when Allah said: "Be, and it was" - or He uttered, His word in time and in the beginning of the creation. This is what the Sufis term "aql-kull", or universal intelligence, as the emana- tion of the "aql awwal", namely, the "first intelligence." Then the "nafs-kull", or the "universal soul" that was the first to hear and obey this divine order, emanated from the "first soul" and transformed the universe.

Bernice: not much better in the UK and were a lot smaller country than the USA
http://www.debtbombshell.com/

GTCharlie: Im pleased to hear it....'bout time someone took some responsibility

Bernice: I'm going use my mastercard to pay my share

Bernice: It's bad and it's all on Obama. The Dems keep saying that Bush got us here but the reality is that Obama is in his second year and he's managed to put us more in debt and double digit unemployment. He campaigned one way and governs another. He's deceitful and anything but transparent.

Vikings: I agree. Unfortunately, with so many activist judges we probably need some more specific language so that there's no room for activist interpretations.

And I really think another huge aspect of the problem lies in the fact that Democrats are courting the vote with immigration and anchor babies represent votes to them. Not just the votes those babies represent when they become of voting age, but the likelihood that their parents get fast-tracked into US citizenship because of Democratic policies that are likely to pass (unless we change things). Those parents will largely vote Democratic.

The vote is the only reason Democrats care about this issue. They care only about power (this is evidenced by their power grab in Washington, putting forth policies in spite of the fact that the majority of American citizens oppose those policies, and the huge growth of the Federal government into so many aspects of our lives. This is the Democratic way. But they do it in the guise of caring for the middle-income and the poor. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The national debt is $13.3 trillion and that equals $42967 per person....and the US debt per TAX PAYER is $120218

thank god we dont have to bear anything like that..

Art


: I think the answer to your question is also in the 14 the amendment, it's a line that gets forgotten all to often.

"all persons born or naturalized in the United states, AND UNDER THE JURISDICTION OF..."

That last line is what conveniently gets dropped, and is why babies of illegal aliens should not get get citizenship, that point was made clear by the authors of the amendment. and is why babies born outside of their country of citizenship should get their birthright from their parents country, not visa-versa

personally I do not think the law needs to be changed, only the judges who Ignore the Constitution in favor of their personal agenda, and the idiots in congress who fail to tell them "thanks for your opinion but take a hike as your opinion has no place here"
Legally, the only jurisdiction the judges have is to rule the amendment constitutional or not, either way citizenship would not be allowed

Vikings: That's part of it (probably a huge part) and then there's the fact that he's not far left enough for them. Now that's scary. I didn't think there was farther left to go!

Artful Dodger: hmmmmm, why is the far left lashing out at the messiah? hmmmmmmm

simple, it's an election year and they know that bama is a failed president

Filmmaker James Cameron Backs Out of Global Warming Debate HE Organized

He was told that it wasn't in his best interest to debate. This after much hoopla by Cameron. Even with two scientists by his side, Cameron chickened out at the last minute. That's because they myth of man-made global warming cannot be defended..

Latest Gallop poll" Bush ahead of Obama in favorability.

Bernice:

hmmmmm, why is the far left lashing out at the messiah? hmmmmmmm

There seems to be some serious infighting in the liberal party.

Artful Dodger: agreed...."about making a lot of sense" (too scared to say otherwise)

Bernice: She'll read my finer points because I make a lot of sense - if I do say so myself.

Ferris Bueller: you're not concerned with such huge national debt? Eventually there will be 2 billions in interest alone every single day. You ok with that?

I don't care if it's Dems or Repubs, these irresponsible representatives need to get out of office and we need to put in those that will curb spending and limit government power. And Yes, Bush was a failure at curbing spending.

Artful Dodger: ""This is my last response to you""

don;'t worry, she told me that also

Artful Dodger:   a lot of speculation about what will happen in worse case scenarios.

The National debt, from Washington to Bush is 5 trillion dollars. This took place over 2 CENTURIES. But, Obama will double that in 5 YEARS!!! He's doubling the government. And taxes will increase to pay for it all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vczpvxYfbA8&feature=player_embedded

Tuesday: does that mean we're not going to Prom together?

lol, Tuesday why did you delete all your posts? Especially the ones where you were insulting? hmmmmmm



Maybe next time you post something that is supposed to represent your position on a matter you'll bother to first understand what it is you are supporting. That way, you can defend your post if challenged. Just saying.....

(and you won't have to delete it all when you are shown to be wrong)

Tuesday: Depends on what you mean by the word "know."