No, I have put a start date on the 1st of September, so I think it will not start before that date. Otherwise it should already started, because the minimum players is 4.

the tourney you posted will start as soon as it hits 5 players. due to the minimum standard you set. you should set the limit higher!

you have to be careful that you don't allow it to start once it reaches your minimum standard. put a minimum like 16 people.

Chaos: That will surely put your head in a spin

Chaos: Welcome on Painking:)

It took some time and convincing since I don't own a credit card and had already asked my guy to get into paypal to buy me a membership for IYT when I played there, (and as a result I'd rush into internetcafes on holidays to make tournamentmoves) and now he had to get an account at alertpay. But now I'm a Rook on 'PainKing' as my guy calls it and can join multiple tournaments

happy hermit: poor Nothingness, he too has worked hard on his ratings!

Tenuki has over 1000 games on the go, and we are just in the opening moves. Probably finish at the end of next year! If you look at his ratings though, he is at or near the top of many strategy games! So I'm not underestimating him!

happy hermit: Tenuki is legit he plays slowly or should i say carefully! He is not to underestimated. Be mindful my young apprentice!

SL-Mark:
Mark-

Thanks for picking up the game.

If you don't rush your moves I'll try and have my rating over 2000 before our game finishes . . . I can probably do that by challenging Nothingness to a bunch of games. :)

BTW - I see you are playing tenuki . . . I am curious how those turn out. He and I used to play a lot of Dark Chess at IYT years ago and I am curious how his skill set translates to Sabotage.

-Eric

happy hermit: Okay Eric, I'll take you on. But you won't be giving me any points if I win (1 or 2 perhaps). You really need to do something about your 1851 rating, so good luck and you might grab yourself a handful

It took me many games to earn a BKR over 2000 and #1. I have never turned down an invite, so if anyone fancies their chances, just send an invite. All I ask is that you move once a day (on average).

lukulus: Ah yes, they are well known. Sorry misunderstood.

SL-Mark: No no no, there is couple of people in another games who cheat this way:)

lukulus: Okay, second after you

I just posted two Open Fast games to the waiting list . . . feel free to come grab some of my rating points. :)

SL-Mark: You wont be first...:)

lukulus: Thank you. Guess that sums it up well "It's a matter of luck"

And anyone starting out in a new game type would be well advised to aim to play the top players (and win) in their 1st four games.

Think I will trash my SL-Mark account, create a multi nic, beat myself four times, play 21 easy players, then play once every 6 months to remain visible! Try and reach my 3000 BKR then

http://brainking.com/en/FAQ?ht=21


4.2) I play a game with an unrated player. How does it affect my BKR?

Each player has a BKR although it is not displayed. Players start with BKR = 1300 and the BKR is not shown until he/she finishes at least 4 rated games. Furthermore, BrainKing displays estimated values of your particular BKR change below the selected game board, depending on the game result (win, draw or loss).

i heard everyone started with a 1500 rating?

The system is reasonable. It simply requires a large number of game against random opponents to be optimally accurate.

SL-Mark: I see your point. Its matter of luck:) From this reason there are these new ratings provisional. I am not familiar with USCF ratings, because Czech chess federation is using ELO system (same as FIDE). But also in this system it is similiar - with difference your rating is provisional until you finished 9 (or more -it depends on how many games you play during period in which is rating calculated) games and from these games is you rating counted. It is better to defeat higher rated players in the very begining your career. But it is not good for internet ratings where change must be visible after finishing every game, not after some period.

Rating 1300 is used when two players without any finished game meet each other. If you finish first game, you still see non rated, but system is using your new rating.

lukulus: A further thought. Why would the rating system add 400 points to the opponents rating if the opponent has a BKR of 2100? It does not do that for beating lower rated players. Furthermore, everyone supposedly starts with a rating of 1300. That makes it a 1200 point increase!

lukulus: All understood.
But isn't it flawed that if you beat the strong player in your first 4 games you get a huge BKR rating, but if you beat them in your 5th game you only go from 1700 to 1800 say?

SL-Mark: I think to obtain rating 2500 you have to defeat player 2100 in your first game. And it is not so easy. Formula adds 400 pts to opponents rating if you win. If you win later, your rating will be smaller. In case of huge differencies you earn nothing from your following victories.

Yes it is frustrating, but if player with such huge rating isnt good he disappers or loose some games in future. If he is good, he wont hide and will defend his position.

Chaos: That's all fair enough given we have established BKRs. I understand how all this works.

But is it not frustrating for those working hard on their provisional BKR to proceed up the rankings only to see someone leap frog to the top?

There are many instances where players are on a provisional BKR, have a dozen plus wins (some against very strong players), no losses and sitting on a BKR of say 1800. Then pop, someone goes right to the top on 4 wins. BKR is also important to these players!

SL-Mark: That's exactly the reaon for provisional and established BKR, you should only look at established BKR. What is also important is that if somsone stops playing they disappear from the chart after a while. So they have to continue playing.

Chaos: Yes :)
I must say that I am not too put out by all this, as Jim says below it is only a game!

But it is slighlty frustrating, and I am sure for many others (not just in espionage), when you have worked hard to climb up the ratings to have someone (not their fault) leap frog to the top.

The BKR ratings are important. Having a tight BKR range at the top promotes competiveness and moral. However, where someone has leapt in with an extremely high BKR rating, causes abuse (defend rating by only playing low rank players) and creates less competiveness and frustration amongst others.

Sometimes that new rating is unassailable (a 500 point difference) , and I can't really blame someone from defending that position that they were luckily awarded (by playing only weak players).

I believe that anyone near the top of the ratings should have earned it over many games.

As Lukulus says the rating will drop rapidly if some losses are incurred. However, this is only true if those losses occur soon after the initial provisional BKR has been awarded. After about 10 games, the BKR delta is much less sensitive.

Celticjim: I have brought the subject up on the Feature Request board for wider discussion. Perhaps Fencer will make a tweak in Version 3 that he is currently working on.

there's definitely a flaw in the initial rating.I didn't realise this had already been discussed at another board which is why I brought it up.If Fencer knows about it then not much we can do.Whatever the formula is it would certainly seem to need tweaking.

SL-Mark: If we, as a league start having regular tournaments we'll get quite a good ranking for those who participate in it. If anyone else is High on the BrainKing rate list we should lure this player into playing with us :)

The flaw is more than the abuse.
The ratings work very well after the initial provisional BKR has been awarded, it is how the initial rating is derived that is often specious.

There is a big difference between inaccurate and wildly spurious.

Here is a real example from earlier this year. You can find many similar examples across all games.

Game 1 won, opponent BKR between 1500 – 1600
Game 2 won, opponent BKR between 1400 – 1500
Game 3 won, opponent BKR between 1700 – 1800
Game 4 won, opponent BKR between 1500 – 1600

So what initial provisional BKR should be awarded?
1600 – 1700 Largely inaccurate, as we have information on a 1700-1800 win.
1700 – 1800 Inaccurate, but best we can do with information available.
1800 - 1900 Largely inaccurate, no information to validate this.
1900 – 2000 Grossly inaccurate, absolutely nothing to suggest this.
2000 – 2100 Wildly Spurious!
What was awarded? A figure half way between 2000 – 2100.

You decide, flawed or not?

Dark Prince: yes this is correct. the rating system is great its the way it is implemented that is abused.

Then clearly the flaw is not in the rating system, but in the system allowing players to pick and choose their opponents and decline challenges.

Nothingness: Of course there must be such flaw. All chess ratings were developed for players who want play in tournaments or in tema games. These ratings doesnt count with open challenges because OTB chess doesnt know it.

here is where the flaw is. lets say i get lucky and get a 2500 rating to start, playing against average players. at this point there is no motivation to playing high ranked players ever again! and thus i will only play new players or low ranked players that have very little chance of winning. also in chess you are placed in sections with other similarly ranked players where you cannot avoid them. and eventually you will lose. these are open games not tourneys. in tourney play the rankings work perfectly but when you can pick and choose your opps they fail. ive been trying to face players and usually they turn down the game invitation in fear of losing ranking points.

BK use chess rating system. And in chess is not common that newbie meet 2000+ rated player and will be able to beat him. If player with rating 2500 lose a game his rating will drop rapidly.

SL-Mark:
I already acknowledged the potential flaw in the established rating of those who avoid playing strong opponents. The term provisional already indicates a lack of accuracy. As such, a provisional rating can easily be igonored by potential opponents in favor of looking at the previous opponents in completed games or the games themselves to determine the players strength.

Dark Prince: It takes 25 games as Vikings states to get a rated BKR.

Interesting you don't consider receiving a provisional BKR rating of 2500+ on just four games flawed. I know many on this site that would beg to differ, especially as one can then play and win 21 easy games and obtain an established (unrealistic) BKR.

There has been much debate on this subject in the brainking board.

Dark Prince: 25

SL-Mark:
I think it takes 20 rated games to get an established rating with no parenthesis. Prior to that, the rating is in parenthesis. It isn't flawed, it simply isn't yet established. There could be a flaw due to timed out games or avoiding games against strong players.

Celticjim: Yes, congrats to Nuno.

I agree, the BKR rating system is one of the very neat features of this site. However, it does wildly exaggerate ratings in the first few games. There are quite a number of examples in other games where a new player has won the 1st four games (not necessarily against any strong player) and suddenly has a BKR of 2500+!

It does settle down soon after this and a 1500 BKR player might only gain approx 50-100 points from beating a 2000 BKR player. Considering that one always starts with a BKR of 1300, then that was a ~1000 points from that win!!!

Not taking anything from Nuno, but I do feel that the BKR ratings is flawed in the first few games. BrainKing simply says it is not a rated BKR and that only rated BKRs are truly reflective of ability. In other words, this anomaly is being ignored.

he was in the very early years. I'm talking when IYT first started and they only had 1 version of sabotage.

thought I recognized that name but didn't remember him from IYT

if you did not know Nuno was one of the ORIGINAL players at IYT. he predated myself and tony wilder! He was the Cy Young or Ty Cobb of sabotage. ( to use a baseball analogy or Jose Raul Capablanca to use a chess anaolgy!

Nuno Miguel 2521 rating in open fast sab
he's 4-0 beat Sentinel who is unrated
beat doris twice who is rated 1502
and beat Dagger once who is rated 2045
hey Dagger I'd be curious to know how many points he got off you in this game Open Fast Espionage (dAGGER vs. Nuno Miguel)

Good going Nuno but is this really reflecting the top rated player? At 4-0 hmmmmm
Mark is 55-2 and he's 500 points behind.Yeah it's only a game but let's not pretend we don't care about those rating points
Congrats Nuno

SL-Bosse: I suggest we only recruit among real espionage fans. Players who are in it for the challenge/love for this particular game.

I will put it up as soon as possible.

im in as well.. more than likely!

I'm in