Czuch: "Why bother with messy details anyway????"

You mischaracterize me. I always pay attention to the messy details. I highly recommend doing so, to anyone who wants a clearer picture of the world.

Czuch: "Yes! and the culprits have names as well..... Nancy and Harry and Bam and the whole liberal collectivism movement"

I can understand your aversion to collectivism. The example of the former U.S.S.R. is both terrible & terrifying. But there is also the danger we face from the opposite extreme, i.e., the rise of fascism.

Some recognize the dangers of communism, but not those of fascism. Some the dangers of fascism but not communism. But they both meet in the middle of the political spectrum, as I stated previously. They both strip liberties and are totalitarian regimes.

Czuch: "it is entirely possible to have a problem that isnt created by my government as a rouse to take away my liberty"

Sure it is, and I'm sure that happens. But think about what that means. If your government will use an unforseen accident as an excuse to take your liberties, then the threshold has already been crossed. It will also, if necessary, create "accidents" to take your liberty away.

Again, I don't think you deny that SOME governments throughout history have acted this way. There is Hitler's "Reichstag fire," started by the Nazis & blamed on the Communists, and used as an excuse to shut down civil liberties in Germany.

The bias seems to be that, while other nations might do these things, the U.S. government wouldn't. I have called this thinking "naive," not as an insult, but because it is contrary to the evidence. I have also called it "understandable," not to be condescending, but to express the fact that I realize this idea is very hard to comes to grips with for many of us.

Czuch: I see you're bright & bushy-tailed as ever this morning, Czuchers. :o)

Would like to chat, gotta run. Please continue & I'll come back & learn at the feet of the Master. lol

Artful Dodger: Now I won't be able to sleep. lol

Artful Dodger: That sounds like a loaded question. But I do find it convincing, after impartial & diligent scrutiny....so I will now incorporate it into my overall argument. lol

Artful Dodger: In your case, the judge was worried you might have something up your sleeve. :o)

Once the people have lost both psychological & material means of self-defense, open dictatorship becomes possible. And that is the ultimate goal: a one-world dictatorship, under whatever name you care to give it. With technology this has suddenly become a real possibility.

Yeah, I guess I AM a conspiracy theorist. :o)

Bernice: According to our political philosophy, rights are God-given and cannot be abridged, except in individual cases where some have trampled the rights of others, i.e., through criminal acts.

I'm not familiar with the details of the Port Arthur Massacre so have no opinion whether it constitutes an example of the Problem-Reaction-Solution model.

But your post makes my point in the following way: the "thank god that we do not have the right to bear arms," is an example of how the people can be persuaded to demand the removal of fundamental rights, for security's sake. This can apply not only to the bearing of arms, but of other rights also.

Bernice: I would do a jig but that would embarrass both of us. lol Thanks :o)

Artful Dodger: So...ummm...could I have it back now?

Artful Dodger: ha ha ha lol (double laugh)

Some examples:

1. We have the right to peaceful assembly and to redress grievances. But if instigators to violence are planted in a peaceful demonstration, the result is a crackdown on all public protests, their cordoning off into "free speech zones," etc. And the public in general may accept this because, after all, we can't have violence in our streets.

2. We have the right to keep & bear arms. But enough seemingly random violence in our cities & schools, etc., and pretty soon the people themselves (enough to make a difference) are crying for the removal of this basic right...an armed citizenry to withstand tyranny.

3. The Oklahoma City bombing is a good specific example. What was one major result from it? That was Clinton's Anti-Terrorism Bill, which removed some of our basic freedoms and eased restrictions on the military's involvement in domestic law enforcement.

4. The War on Drugs has been used to curtail our freedoms in many & various ways. This fits the model when it is realized that the CIA has been heavily involved in smuggling drugs into our country.

5. 9/11 is a textbook example. The process runs thus: a) create the Problem b) which forces a Reaction among the people c) then provide the Solution.

And again, it is in seeing Who Benefits from these insidious processes that we recognize the perpetrators. As a general rule, the result of the process is, less rights for the people, more power for the government....i.e., the centralization of authority.

The Problem-Reaction-Solution model postulates that we DO have unscrupulous government actors, even in Western democracies, who would like to reduce our freedoms and, if possible, move us into a dictatorship where their needs would be met at the expense of liberty for the people.

The best method for this, however, would be through subterfuge...i.e., get the people to choose less freedom in exchange for more security. This is where Problem-Reaction-Solution comes in as an effective means.

In a fullblown dictatorship, Problem-Reaction-Solution is strictly unnecessary. The government just muscles the people and does what it wants. Communist Russia & Nazi Germany are two good examples from opposite political poles....where each merges into its opposite on the circular political spectrum.

But for Western democracies, because they have overcome the darker forms of tyranny in the past, and where Freedom is ingrained among the people as a Birthright, brute force is not a sufficient means for unscrupulous government actors to impose their will, at least not until or unless the power residing in the people is dramatically reduced.

Thus, we have Problem-Reaction-Solution as an effective tool of manipulation.

This is the simple formula for controlling the Mass Mind. Learn this and history, even as it happens, will take on a whole new perspective for you.

One other question to always ask is: Who Benefits?

Artful Dodger: It really is the most wonderful thing. Long live the Internet and long live the 1st Amendment! :o)

Good post, Art. I said before and I repeat....you've not used a heavy Moderator's hand, even as passionate as you are on certain topics....but restraint rather has been your hallmark. I commend you for this.

Bernice: I had a post diappear once from here a few days or a week ago. I don't think Art had a hand in that one either. Some Silent Monitor decided it was out-of-bounds, I am supposing....

anastasia: I think a burlap bag is what was available in those days. Also it could be tied quickly and still give the snipe wiggle room. The most important point, as I recall, was standing perfectly still and waiting....

Artful Dodger: I have an uncle who attempted to send me on a snipehunting expedition as a boy. lol

Bernice: I always love your posts. But really, those "cutting remarks" aren't meant to be so...but to point to the path of knowledge & the way out of ignorance. ;o)

(V): As usual, you do not surprise me with your intuitive grasp of things, but it is always a pleasure to read.

I think the great "heresy" that wove its way into Christianity is the idea of "separateness," that God is external from his Creation acting upon dead matter, or that fundamentally the Universe(s) is not one great organism both spiritual & material existing in many gradations.

Not that only Christianity has suffered from this delusion, but we all "see through a glass darkly," in these relatively early stages.

Another problem with Christianity as a religious movement, I think, is it's separation from the essential anti-Imperialistic message of Christ & the early Church, to the Imperialism of Rome. In the 4th century Rome co-opted the Church and Christians began to think in a Roman legal framework, and to systematically eliminate (through Church Councils) all the finer points & interpretations that were a part of the vast Christian heritage during its first 3 centuries. Thus began the Dark Ages, where knowledge becomes an evil-in-itself because of the light it sheds on individual minds....a very bad thing for those whose goal is to control you.

Czuch: Really, you might look into some of these things for yourself, then you wouldn't be asking for breakfast in bed (metaphorically speaking).

Google "did phone calls from planes take place on 9/11?" and see what you come up with. I just did. There's plenty to look at, like this:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=10103

and

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/carrollton-ga/TJ5K48PRS4SPM862L

But I can't do it all for you. If you have no real interest in this topic outside a Politics board on BK, and no source of political information outside of Fox news and related media, there's not much I or anyone else can do to enlighten you.

Bernice: That is a very good analogy. What might one call someone who habitually snipes at the posts of others without contributing much to any conversation in particular? :o)

(V): Both the Jewish scriptures & the Christian present profound truths but unfortunately organized forms of religion tend to forget that "the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." Symbolism is the rule in the great part of Scripture, but so few seem to possess "ears to hear."

This discussion might belong on the Religion board except for the fact that these belief systems effect our world politically so greatly. I might sometimes sound like a "Christian hater" but I am far from that. In fact (a bit of history), in 1988 I returned from preaching a sermon on holiness to the pastor's house, only to watch Jimmy Swaggart breaking down on the TV. This devastated me...I could not comprehend it at the time. It challenged all my belief system to the core...about myself, about God, about holiness...about everything. So Paul said, "Examine yourselves, to see if ye be in the faith." And any kind of understanding of the world must begin with personal soul-searching.

(V): You are so right on all these observations. God save us all from those who apparently call upon Him most fervently. And let's not forget that the ignorant St. Augustine, reverred by Protestants & Catholics alike, first laid out the doctrine that compulsion to make one a Christian, including by means of torture, was a good thing because thereby a soul was saved from Eternal Damnation. Amazing stuff, really.

I am beginning to wonder if, above & beyond all these forms of deception and control which seem to make of history a bloody shipwreck no matter the good intentions of the many, there might really be some demonic or otherworldly power pulling the strings....and perhaps feeding off the negative energy created through suffering.

I certainly don't know...but at least it's a theory which attempts to account for what is.

Charles Martel: But at the rate we're going, we may not be here in 2,000 years, so it may be a moot point.

I also don't distinguish between Holocausts. Whether it is the events of Waco, the Germans exterminating the Jews, Stalin killing 20,000,000 Russians, Zionists destroying the lives of Palestinians, or Americans slaughtering Iraqis & Vietnamese....it's all the same. A spade is a spade.

Charles Martel: Very true, they certainly made a martyr of him. Total setup from the get-go. And whatever one might think of his religious beliefs, it's supposed to be a free country. The most unpardonable sin was the government's murder of innocent children.

Artful Dodger: Well I guess then that one might say: You are without excuse. :o)

My beliefs about America have been severely modified by my research. There were plenty of sacred cows I had to slaughter. Its par for the course.

Charles Martel: Yes, Ruby Ridge is another major incident in the rise of the American police state. Waco is another.

My difference with liberals is this: they refuse to recognize the mal-intent of their Democratic leaders, while often recognizing it in Republican leaders. And my difference with conservatives is the same: they see the evil of Clinton, but not Bush, etc.

Charles Martel: Also an inside job, under the Clinton administration. Practice run for 9/11, and more importantly at the time, a way to put militia movements in a bad light.

Charles Martel: Well, we partly agree on this. The one other aggressive power there is the U.S. I guess you could argue they are the same, since Israel uses the weapons we supply them.

Charles Martel: Thanks for your well-meaning advice. I didn't realize how disinterested & benevolent it really was.

"Mullen: Iran has fissile materials for bomb"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090302/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/mullen_iran

Setting you up for the kill. Leading you like lambs to the slaughter. That is the attempt. Who will believe these people? Not I.

Charles Martel: You're one of the last people to define to me my duty. Yes you are naive, and yes it is understandable. A spade is a spade. I find your posts relatively meaningless also, so we're even.

anastasia: I agree it was a great tragedy. 3,000 people died that day. Since then, many more have died, and thousands more are sick, who worked on the Ground Zero clean-up. But add to this, 5,000+ American soldiers have died now based on what happened on 9/11. More are dying. But we've barely touched the tip of the iceberg. 6 or 7 hundred thousand Iraqis have died. Millions more are displaced and/or homeless. This is not to mention Afghanistan, nor to mention the money we've thrown into this effort, helping to sink our economy. Nor to mention the destruction of YOUR civil liberties with the passage of the Patriot Act & the Military Commissions Act.

You may prefer that I change the subject, and that is your right. But as I see it, I owe it to the victims of 9/11, to those who have died in its wake, to my countrymen, to my children & grandchildren to come, to my deceased father & ancestors, and to myself, to expose the truth about 9/11, as I see it. I would also suggest that your relatively blind acceptance of the official account is naive, although it is understandable.

This is OUR time. It is OUR world. We must answer to generations to come for what we do now, and don't do. Liberty is always under attack, in one form or another. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. While we are on this earth we have a job to do...afterwards we can hang it up & collect our wings or whatever. But while we are here, duty comes before pleasure & sometimes the case is such that doing one's duty leaves little or no room for pleasure. And THAT is why I continue to post as I do. Whether you agree with my position or not, I hope you'll be sympathetic to my intention.

(V): It is possible that governments in general develop psychopathic tendencies of self-preservation, and become ruthless predators to accomplish this. They become beasts apart from the people they rule or ostensibly represent. We know that it is often people who seek power, who rise to the top of the political-economic chain. And those are the worst kinds of people to be in charge. That is why Plato said it would take a Philosopher-King (a man who didn't want the job) to establish a truly just society. He also said democracies inevitably devolve into oligarchies, then tyrannies. Looks like he may have been right.

(V): It might have been "all of the above." Like the firebombing of civilian targets, it was unconscionable, whatever the strategic purpose(s).

Artful Dodger: Gotta catch a snooze while you can. :o)

It's snowing cats & dogs here! Whoopedoo! (rare in GA)

Yes....to create terror.

Also consider that the perpetrators (if the U.S. Government) were in charge of the crime scene & the investigation, not to mention they control the corporate media. And small-scale false-flag operations had already been tried & tested & proven doable. 9/11, then, would be the biggie, the one they'd been aiming for, to bring about their major objectives. In this scenario, the main reason they thought they wouldn't get caught would have to be....Hubris.

(I'm writing to Art here but also trying to answer some of Czuch's objections)

Czuch: One word on why the buildings had to come down: "Shock and Awe"

This phrase, incidentally, comes from the Romans.

(V): You're doing yeoman service while I sleep. Just got up to peek.

A good book on Dresden is Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse Five." He was there, a prisoner of war. We also firebombed cities in Japan before dropping the big ones.

"Remember, remember, the 11th of September...."

anastasia: I would only say that airplanes & buildings are not tornadoes. Broad experience & study teaches us the characteristics of tornado destruction, along with its destructive unpredictability as a defining characteristic. The same broad experience & study teaches us that the destruction around plane crashes & falling buildings are not so unpredictable. If everything were as unpredictable as you seem to suggest, we'd have no basis for science or understanding anything. I appreciate your comments, but can't agree with the reasons for your conclusions.

(V): There is even evidence that we allowed Bin Laden to escape into Pakistan. And before 9/11, in July or August, while Bin Laden was reportedly on our most wanted list, and a 5,000,000 reward offered for his capture, there are reports he had inpatient treatment for 2 weeks in an American hospital in Dubai for dialysis (sp), was treated by an American physician and met with the local CIA agent.

Add to this that the FBI, on its website, when listing Bin Laden as a wanted criminal, does not list the events of 9/11 among the crimes he is wanted for. When asked why not, the FBI response was (paraphrase): "Because we have no hard evidence linking Bin Laden to the events of 9/11."

Artful Dodger: Great post, Art. Some of the articles on that scholar site are pretty compelling. One other site you might consider looking at when you have time is:

http://www.historycommons.org/

This website uses only Mainstream sources of information, but with a world-wide net. It contains searchable timelines of events & topics, 9/11-related & other. It is this website which first caught the attention of David Ray Griffin (after looking at other websites and being unmoved), and caused him to realize some things didn't add up. He is not your typical conspiracy theorist.

But regardless of that, the website is very informative.

Artful Dodger: Good post with solid reasoning. I will re-phrase to say: I have seen enough evidence that, although I don't know all details of the plot, I am convinced that 9/11 was orchestrated & carried out by elements within the U.S. Government. And I believe that, were this evidence presented in a court of law, an impartial jury would arrive at the same conclusion.

Still, as you correctly say, many questions still do need to be answered, and many mysteries remain. An independent official investigative committee with subpoena power is needed, but unlikely to develop. Because of this lack, our best-case scenario for understanding 9/11, at the moment, seems to be more-or-less private investigation, piecing together of facts through newspaper reports, etc., and the general spreading of knowledge & information through unofficial sources.

Any investigation, official or unofficial, also needs to be scrutinized, both its results & its methods of arriving at them. No easy task, to be sure.

Artful Dodger: I agree it can be confusing. If it weren't, CoIntelPro wouldn't be doing its job. :o)

I personally think it's a slam dunk. But in any case, sometimes it is best to back off a subject, let things assimilate, approach it later. I do this all the time, maybe we all do.

At the same time, things stick in our minds and don't go away. Eventually we must return to them, because they nag at us.

I personally feel some stress when I make posts about 9/11 or any other subject deemed controversial. I am human, and I like to be liked. Sometimes I imagine how my posts are read, and it is depressing. I also prefer making people happy, not miserable or stressed.

But I push on, because stressful facts, whether about ourselves or about the world around us, cannot be avoided without doing damage to ourselves and/or others. More importantly, avoidance makes us easy prey.

Artful Dodger: No words games intended. Thanks for taking the time to look at the video.

"Aspire to be like Mt. Fuji, with such a broad and solid foundation that the strongest earthquake cannot move you, and so tall that the greatest enterprises of common men seem insignificant from your lofty perspective. With your mind as high as Mt. Fuji you can see all things clearly. And you can see all the forces that shape events; not just the things happening near to you."

Miyamoto Musashi

Artful Dodger: Proof, as ever, is in the eye of the beholder. Some will be persuaded, others not. But even if evidence merely raises doubts, that is a good start because it leads people to question things more critically. That in itself is a closer step towards discovering & understanding truth, i.e., reality, or how things are, or what really happened.

Artful Dodger: Sure we do. But the question I was asked is, What happened to Flight 77 if it didn't crash into the Pentagon?

Artful Dodger: Good question. But we're speaking of "flight" here, not "flights," in the plural. See my post below....to know what happened to the plane and its passengers is a different question than knowing what did NOT happen to them.