hear hear BlazinBrian, i agree with you :)

i agree, i never turn down a achallenge unless i'm playing too many games, and it cost me about 200 points in bg recently! :( Now the challenge is to get them back!

Folks, here is my take on what has been said.

If, as soem of you say, a player rated 300 points below you has a 40% chance of winning, then the game is flawed! It is not the ratings system, it is the GAME that is flawed! Several of you have said that the lower rated backgammon players lose more than they should, which seems to me that luck plays too much of a role.

Backgammon is part luck as far as the dice go. However what you do with the dice rolls is the skill part. The players with better records and ratings are the ones who know how to use the dice rolls to their best advantage. IS there luck involved? Of course. However there has to be some skill as well or how else would you explain why some have great records while some have bad records. Nonetheless, if your primary objective is to have fun then what does any of the ranking stuff matter.

i have never invited higher players, they invite me at gt, and i do play them, but the fibs rating is there, and it makes it easy not to refuse anyone, and when there are open invites in any game, and the player is much lower than me, i don't take the invite, cause i feel it's just as unfair to them. i enjoy playing the gammons, but don't like losing 50 points, it's too hard to get them back, and yes there is skill involved, but the dice play a bigger part. i'm still going to play, i was just trying to give my opinion on the rating system. i've been playing backgammon since the early 60s, i really like the game, and the ratings and best players list, is what makes this site and gt the ones that make most of us play here, i said most not all.

Backgammon is a game of both skill and luck. It's far more skill than people realize. And just like the varying skill levels in any game, Backgammon has its own varying skill levels. Can a beginner beat an experienced player? Yes. Is this totally dependent on the roll of the dice? No. Poorly placed pieces regardless of the roll of the dice can almost guarantee you a loss. But more importantly, an experienced player will win the majority of the games against less skilled opponents (statistically speaking).

I don't know if the debate here is the luck of the dice and how that places an unfavorable advantage to the lower rated players as far as the ratings setup here goes, or if the debate is simply over the issue of luck vs. skill.

Here are some sites to check out.

Salar's site
Backgammon
Newsgroup Archive
Skill vrs Luck
Backgammon
balances luck with skill
A Measure of Luck
Various articles

My own opinion is that two players of equal strength playing at their best will be at the mercy of the dice roll at least at some level. However, since there have been world champions who consistently win even against highly skilled players, luck must be statistically ruled out.

A higher rated player has a lot more chance of losing to a lower rated player in 1pt games. In a 1pt game a gammon or backgammon means nothing to the end result of the game, also a short game is much more at the whim of the luck of the dice. This is why you will rarely see the top players playing 1pt games at dailygammon or games grid, or playing them with a separate ID so as not to affect their ratings.
In multipoint games the odds even out a lot more, a higher rated player has a lot more chance of beating the lower rated player simply because of game skill and strategy.
With FIBS the lower rated player is rewarded for beating a higher rated player, but the higher rated player does not lose such a disportionate amount of points.
Here on the other hand we will see a similar thing happen as what happened at Goldtoken.
The top 20 players consisted of quite a few players (most) who would refuse a casual invite, most were non club members thus were not involved in random match ups in club challenges. Some only played 1 or 2 other players. It also allowed a player with only 35% (or was it 33%) wins to achieve the number 2 position simply because the games they won were against the number 1 player, who just happened to be a buddy. When the system was switched to FIBS and all games were recalculated some interesting things happened, players who had good win/loss ratios but had previously maintained a low rating simply because they played anyone, had a large rise in rating, whereas other players who had a high rating all of a sudden took a big drop. FIBS rewards players for winning, you will not simply get the large point gains by winning the occasional game against a high rated player...nor if you lose will you see your rating drop by 30-40 points at a time, only to find your next win is rewarded with 6.
Backgammon is a very different game to chess, it is extrememly popular, and is usually one of, if not the most popular game on any game site. Thus I personally feel it deserves to have the most effective rating system applied, this will become even more important if multipoint games are ever introduced to this site.

Maybe you could move this discussion to one of Backgammon boards.

Would it be possible to also impliment a ladder rating system, this might solve some of the problems with people who refuse to accept invites

Fencer, I want to suggest to implement two short time controls, (one hour and 30 minutes).
It would allow us to play a fast tournement of one day. Possible?

Possible :-) Will be added. I prepare a big upgrade, it will be a part of that.

I think it might be nice to have discussion boards to discuss variants of games which are here- e.g. chess, line4, etc., but the variant itself is not yet here. This would free up the current game discussion boards to be exclusively dedicated to that game, and the hypothetical variant discussions would have their own discussion boards. Tom

Would anyone else be interested in Hex or Twixt here? The object in each is quite similar; connect opposite edges with a continuous path of your pieces to win. Twixt rules are here: http://www.msoworld.com/mindzine/news/proprietary/twixt/twixt1.html and Hex rules are here: http://www.playsite.com/t/games/board/hex/rules.html

Universe is a cool abstract for 2 to 4 players. It's usually finished in less than 8 moves by each player. Info is here: http://www.geocities.com/twixtplayer/Universe1.html Anyone interested?

In the "Features in development" list, Jungle is described as an "old Indian game." The only Jungle game I know of is Chinese, also called Shou Qi. Rules are here: http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/jungle.html#rules (Note: there is some debate among players as to whether the Elephant may capture the Rat or not.) Is this the game under development?

Thanks for your attention.

David

In the Jungle set I bought at a Chinese supermarket in London the rules state that the elephant loses in a meeting with the rat. If this wasn't so the elephant would only be vulnerable to another elephant which I think would reduce the games dynamism.

she lies impudently about having sent me private messages.

actually due since long, since she begame part of the gossip-providers
and harrassers ... her heart told her I'm the egg, do you remember ??
she 'would gladly apologize if I'm not' - but how blunt must someone be
anyway to assume I would create an ID to make idiotic fun of myself ?
she's so incredibly numb and, now uncovered as fraud also, deeply involved
in the penetrant iyt-bs spun in the background by the known representants ...

regarding those facts and, preemptively preventing further
cheats from her, as she's actually right now busy blurring
the traces of her misuse, by deleting my messages that just
corrected a deliberate misquoting of my posts (guess who)
- here the original part of her msg ventilating about me.

she is a shame for honesty in general and, this server in particular ... ~*~
________________________________________________

Hannelore
Banned
29. May 2003, 17:40:47

danoschek.....gone. I have warned him repeatedly. Sent him personal messages. He is a complete downer and his unprevoked slams on me,(the moderator) and turns good times on this board to slamming.
______________________________________________

"loses in a meeting" ...? That's an ambiguous phrase. Of course the Rat may capture the Elephant. That's a separate issue from whether the Elephant may capture the Rat or not. The difference? WHO IS MOVING. Jungle is a turn-based game.

To make it clear: the rat can capture the elephant, the elephant can not capture the rat.

Your message was deleted off the members board because you have posted it on every single board on this site. As should these as well as mine OFF this board as it has nothing what so ever to do with features.

Hey danoschek, this board is for discussing new features/games. Take your ridiculous drivel elsewhere, preferably some private forum.

3 boards are every single ... oh well.
somehow I could have forseen that humbug. ~*~

we agreed that you don't understand me, right ?

I posted two msgs regarding bk-features (moderators) to Fencer.

keep your advice where it belongs ... i.e. not at this board ... ~*~

is football-chess ... :D

d1/e1 respectively d8/e8 are the 'goals'

the king is just an ordinary piece and may be struck ...

any piece that reaches physically the opponent's goal, counts.

otb we've usually played it with two half-times ... :P

clock set up like for 3-mins-blizz, a goal ends a clock session,
after quarter an hour a short break - then again 15 mins with
exchanged colours ...

player with more goals after fulltime wins ...

at brainking it could be played like a regular 3-or-4-wins match. ~*~

PS: happy pass-over ... :)

As a side note, you can currently play a version of Hex and Twixt at LittleGolem.net -- so if anyone wanted to take a look at them, you can find those there!

I would be for adding them here. They are "different" games that are not found too many other on-line places.

BBW (BIG BAD WOLF)

I would vote for that game too ...

although basicly kinda go-derivate the 'knights'-geometry
of the chain to be built makes a unique game ... ~*~

I appreciate the positive response, but Twixt has little to do with Go. Players take turns putting tokens on a large grid which starts out empty. Certain terms from Go are applicable to Twixt in a general sense: tesuji (tactics), joseki (corner battles), fuseki (openings), sente (initiative). That's about it. Go is much deeper of course, but Twixt is still over my head.

If Twixt is implemented here, I hope the official ruleset is used. Little Golem uses a mutant version where links are not removed, but you may cross your own links. This may actually reduce the incidence of draws, but it also turns some wins into losses. An example is here. In other words, I hope players would be able to remove their own links if desired. (Sometimes this is necessary to avoid a draw.) It adds to the complexity of the user interface, but no special clicking (such as right-clicking or shift-clicking) would be needed.

Yes, Little Golem has 13x13 Hex, and Twixt "paper and pencil" which is almost Twixt, as I explain in my post from a few minutes earlier. Both these games are also available on PBMserv. If you have the software Zillions of Games you can play Twixt online in real time with opponents who also have Zillions. There are three active realtime Hex servers: Playsite, Kurnik (also available in Polish), and Ludoteka (available in English, Spanish, French, or Basque).

in the 70s when I bought it (25 bucks, at that time high end game price)
it was by 3M as I believe to remember ...
sadly a former gurlfriend 'accidently' packed it when she moved ... :D

as I stated it is unique, although the territory-system of go shines through ...

and yes, links should be re-arrangable, that's essential imho. ~*~

I checked ... In Germany, the 'Kosmos' Company
provides new sets, used 3M sets are available at ebay.

***here*** I found a twixt-page at mindsports ~*~

Avalon Hill bought the 3M bookshelf line of games, and then Hasborg assimilated AH. Hasbro has sales rights I believe, but strangely, Kosmos is the only company selling new sets these days. Brain King might want to stay away from proprietary games, but I hope they join PBMserv, Little Golem, and Zillions in offering Twixt to the public.

Hi Fencer... is it possible to have a page with details of who has given you brains? Or a bit added on your profile?
I have had 100 more brains given me, and no idea who from! I would like to thank them.

harley: Will be done later

As I look at the stuff in development (above), I see Reversi Race. What is Reversi Race? (How is it different from regular Reversi?)

Pro gomoku doesn`t seem to be on the list :(.

How about just taking away the "capture 2 pieces" function from Pente and changing the board colour?
That way we would have pro gomoku on a 19x19 board (which is just fine).

no doubling cube for backgammon???..

I really do not know what this really is about, but someone in the reversi board proposed a game called "reversi race", where you count the total number of disc flips throughout the game instead of the number of black/white disks in the end.

Unfortunately, that proposer ignored the fact that if no-one passes during the game and the whole board is filled, the same player that flips more disks also has more disks in the end, so the difference between this variant and ordinary reversi is very small. Actually, we have the formulas:

BS - WS - WP + BP = 2 (BF - WF),

assuming that the total number of moves (including passes) in the game is even, and

BS - WS - WP + BP + 1 = 2 (BF - WF),

if the total number of moves (including passes) is odd.

Here BS is black's score in normal othello, BP the number of black's passes, BF the total number of disks flipped by black, and Wx similarly for white. We assume that white plays first.

IMO reversi with the tournament rules (fixed diagonal opening, black moving first) would be a far more important thing to implement.

I have to agree that implementing the official rules should be top priority as far as reversi goes. I know few reversi players who abandoned this site because of the ruleset used.

I am just the casual reversi player. I do not play a lot but do enjoy playing it now and then. However I do not see what the fuss is about. I know some do not like the start of the game. However before starting a game you could make an agreement about the starting 4 pieces. If this is what the issue is. I am not sure. If I am missing the arguement please enlighten me.

BlazinBrian:

In normal games play it's possible to make an agreement, but in tournaments you do not know who you'll be playing against, and do not know whether they agree to use the diagonal opening.

Consequently, it's impossible to arrange tournaments here with the correct tournament rules.

And it is impossible to make an agreement that black goes first :) The openings look weird when the colours are switched. I'm sure "pro" players in any game wouldn't like if the wrong colour had the first move.

Why is it so important to start with the diagonal opening?

1st let me say,this is a great site.I love it.I am a relatively new player.
question : fencer how you ever considered developing more games that more than 2 opponents can play together.
idea : how about the old fashioned chinese checkers game on a board for 6 or 8 players.halma seems to be popular here,so it can miss.

...I agree,the doubling cube is missing from the backgammon here.I would love to know why it was ommitted when the game was developed.

Why do you need a doubling die in a one point game unless you are gambling?

I think what is wanted is multi-point games, like 5, 9, & 21 point games.... with the use of a double cube. I would also like to see this here.

I see now what may perhaps be the problem with a doubling cube now... the point system 1 for a win.. 1/2 for a draw 0 for a loss... in the current setup for multiple point matches... I'm not a programmer so i don't know all that's involved to make it so it would work with a doubling cube... .. oh well.... Still a Great Site!!...

the game playing strategy to backgammon can be divided into 3 main factors:
1-luck,it is partly a game of chance.
2-various advance/block ploys.many involving the key factor of bumpng opponents blots to add to his points or blocking opponent so as to delay point reduction.
3-unique to backgammon(thus its strategic appeal),is the act of doubling a cube.declining=game forfeit.thus this is an excellent way to judge an opponents & your own skill & experience.as well as gambling on the amount of games lost.

without the cube,it is not real backgammon.
the wisdom of this is lost to the novice player.

the doubling cube would still work with the existing point system.adjusting the program to allow for a multiplication factor would not be very difficult.it would be a simple algorithm.

Is there any way to suppress the announcement of the gothic tmt. on the main page? I've seen it, I'm not interested, but every time I go to the main page I have to scroll down beyond it to get to the games.

You can't remove news posts (which is what that is) yet. You just have to wait until it goes away (and i'm not really sure how long that'll be). I know, it can be kind of annoying ;-)

pipilo:

(1) Because it's that way accordingt to the official tournament rules. Some people such as myself want to practice the real game that is universally accepted, and not some local variant.

(2) Good players say that the game is more unbalanced (the beginner has a disadvantage) with the parallel opening.