Tuesday: but aren't there much more worthy ppl who deserve to be honored for doing hard honest work
not just bbeinga pop star
dodoesntake sense to me why hohonorim at all

Übergeek 바둑이: I agree that Bush carries a huge part of the blame for this mess. But he's not alone. Many other Republicans are to blame as are many Democrats. Anytime there improprieties in elections it's wrong. I think many politicians are basically crooked. And I'll admit, I can't stand most democrats. But I can recognize and idiot Republican when I see one.

Übergeek 바둑이: Yes it will, so many small businesses (such as restaurants and related dependant businesses) will fail if the bigger ones fall.

And if the same happens in USA as over here, then banks, etc will pick up and the related Gov's will make a profit in the long term.

Artful Dodger:

In response to some comments:

> I don't trust him. I think all this stimulus crap will bite the US in the butt.

Entirely agree with this. Initially this stimulus package and the baiolout for the banks was put forth by the Bush administration at the end of 2008. As I recall MacCain and Obama interrupted their campaigns for one entire weekend to agree on how the stimulus package would continue after the election and both candidates pledged to release the 800 billion regardless of who was elected in the end. I think it is unsustainable. Releasing more money into the economy will fuel inflation and the money released so far has done nothing to slow down the rise in unemployment. More stimulus means a bigger deficit, and more unemployment means less tax revenues. The administration is a catch-22 situation. The solution is let companies fail and let the economy take the hit and start over. Saving banks, car companies and monopolies wil not help working class people or small businesses, and it is from those segments of the economy that the recovery will come in the end.

> One way to cripple America is to bankrupt her. That's where this huge
> spending President is heading.

The runaway spending started in 2001 when George W. Bush saw the surplus he inherited from Clinton as a license to print money. Then 9-11 happened and the was in Afghanistan and Iraq decimated the accounts balance. Both Bush and Obama have budgeted as if the 2000 surplus was still there. They have let Ben Bernanke talk them into giving so much money to banks that now tax payers are literally paying taxes to support banks that gouge their savings in the end.

George W. Bush is to blame for this. This situation was created before the election. I think Obama is making a serious mistake by playing the bailout game. If banks (car companies and others) fail to pay back the bailout money, then taxpayers will take the brunt of it.

> As to Al Frankin: ... The democrats disputed legitimate votes and the courts
> sided with the democrats.

Is it just me or does this sound a lot like the 2000 election? Back in 2000 the Democrats asked for a recount and lost. Now the Republicans asked for a recount and lost. So far the Reblicans are winning. They got a president, while the Democrats got just a senator!

Artful Dodger: .... and your economic basis for this is?

Sometimes you have to spend to save.

(V): You can't spend trillions of dollars and get out of debt. And no business should be bailed out. Not the business of the government. Not the way the market works. You can't manage the market in that way. You'll see. GM is bankrupt anyway. So it didn't help. The government will drive things even worse in the auto market. Idiots. They know nothing of running car companies.

Artful Dodger: Is he? Then most countries in the western world are in trouble as most are following the same path in some form.

(V): You don't solve reckless spending with even more reckless spending. Obama is reckless.

Artful Dodger: Yes... I think everyone agrees with that. That's why this could cause alot of good.... as stated!!

"Lots of people have poor childhoods but that's no excuse to do some of the things MJ did."

It's part of the cycle.. that's what I'm hoping such a big death in terms of publicity will change. Quite frankly if everyone just moans about the death and the hype then that will do no good.

And Bush already bankrupted America. Also he wanted more BiG BROTHER to monitor everything Americans did in the name of homeland security.

So.... everything you are accusing the democrats of doing, the republicans have done already!!

I don't trust him. I think all this stimulus crap will bite the US in the butt. It was declared an emergency in the beginning (to ward off the dreaded 9% unemployment that was sure to come if they didn't pass it) but now we are in double digits and they are talking about another stimulus package. Nice.

One way to cripple America is to bankrupt her. That's where this huge spending President is heading. And don't be mistaken, his honeymoon days are over. The economy is worsening. Taxpayers will see increases in their taxes and deductions are already being eliminated. When you want to sell your home in the future you'll have to jump through a bunch of Federal regulations. Big Brother is here.

As to Al Frankin: All the votes were NOT counted. Read the news. That's at the heart of the issue. The democrats disputed legitimate votes and the courts sided with the democrats. Never mind that in some districts there was double counting etc. The same sort of nonsense happened here in this State. Minnesota has now elected an ex wrestler and a failed radio host.

The Democrats have a little more than three years to mess this country up and then there will be a change in leadership. In two years the democratic majority will not stand. People are already tired of their nonsense. watch and see. Obama is losing favor in strongholds. In one stronghold he's down 11%. That's a big deal.

(V): Frankly, who cares? MJ is dead. He's still dead. He's no model for anything. He was a musician and that's that. His personal life is not something to hold up as a model. He was a drug addict. He engaged in illegal activities. He was an abuser of drug and that's what killed him. And I'm growing tired of the victim attitude. Lots of people have poor childhoods but that's no excuse to do some of the things MJ did. Let's face it, if he were a old white unemployed bum, fat and unshaven, who just happened to have a similar unpleasant upbringing, and he was "sharing his bed" with kiddies (as a bridge to his childhood or whatever) you'd sing a different tune. So would the world.

Too many people made excuses for MJ in his life. That's why he's dead. Now they are making excuses in his death. Beyond stupid.

I loved his music. Ben is a favorite. I'm sorry he's dead. But facts are facts. He died because he abused drugs. And he paid a unscrupulous doctor to acquire the drugs illegally and administer them illegally. In that respect, MJ was a criminal. But the left will not allow this. Even though they went after Rush Limbaugh for his addiction to pills, and they wanted his head, MJ does worse and the left has only platitudes.

gogul: the whole Western world is guilty of selling trash to Africa in one form or another
and we carry on doing so sadly because they are not in a strong enough postition to do anything about

most of the Western worlds unwanted computers are send to India and China to be broken up in horrilbe conditions

we know it shouldnt be happening and there are laws in place to stop it
BUT it still is happening

Artful Dodger: It depends on how people use the facts of his life.

gogul: "Allright. That's nuts. Mj's life is a failure."


Very much so. You're about the only one making any sense of the MJ hysteria.

gogul: "michael Jacksons music and life is politically irrelevant. A few interesting people died lately, how about McNamara. Michael Jackson is taking too much space on this board."

Gee, you and I agree!

gogul: ?? Brake?!?!?!?

..... undo not destroy I feel is a more appropriate phrase.

when you consider the Western world is bleeding the earth dry

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8143566.stm

Tuesday: meow :-)

Tuesday: Chevrolet? Rickenbacher?

It was around the 12th of June when guantanamo went Palau, a good solution for 17 Uyghurs. All that China had to protest (they only protest and do not have the power for more), these Uyghurs are suspected terrorists. Listen Chinese: We do not care about what you think.

Chinas contribution to the world problems (money, Guantanamo, trading) is none. They like to look hyper correct, but their way is abuse. They pest their environment to be able to deliver us their TRASH. Typical transgressors the chinese.

gogul: This IS a grey wolf. China is selling rubish to the world, and even worse trash to Africa, and the Chinese want cash for that? No way.

Pedro Martínez: Lets bust China. Get the Wall Street journal for background.

gogul: Destroy with care. Wunderschön.

Love your craftsmen (Swiss culture).

Tuesday: Isnt it one and the same smile. It needs something in ones head to understand that those who lost an election (lets say the republicans with Obama) AND those who don't go to the ballot usually build the majority. Obama's no saint, he's under watch as everyone else too.

(V): It should be brake, my bad.

Yes, destroy. Btw with care, not everything.

Tuesday: Yep.

Tuesday: I think quite a few people can see MJ in themselves.

And that you can see, is a change and break from not seeing.

Tuesday: Demos are ment to protest ok. But it often enough makes not more than a silly 'I'm mighty'-smile on the faces of the transgressors. It's all about good mood, bad mood in this ugly circles. It doesn't need big demos to bring down the mood of a failed politician. It's all about mood. There is no violence needed, no stike, no masses needed IMO, I have my own ways.

gogul: Why destroy? why not change!!

"I can see that in political processes you usually break down. Why so?"

???????

Tuesday: Or gotten wiser... But reflection was not a widely taught thing back then.

..... Shame.

(V): And I can see that in political processes you usually break down. Why so? It's our job to make fire under politicians bums.

(V): I don't run away after I destroyed something.

Here's a bridge to politics please: brick by brick... I'm bored with it. It's called salami taktic over here, the Americans say filibuster I think.

gogul: And that can be more destructive if done. Such destruction has been likened to taking a sledge hammer to a brick wall surrounded by glass houses.

Brick by brick is a better method.

Tuesday: He sure did. It might have been just an age factor, or that his dad had gotten better at such acts... who knows!!