The Usurper:  Or you truly have diseased thinking.  A sheeple.

"Only 10 Percent Believe Oswald Acted Alone

(CBS) Thirty-five years after the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, conspiracy theories and charges of an official government cover-up resonate with the American public, according to a new CBS News poll.

Most Americans still remain suspicious of the lone gunman conclusion of the Warren Commission Report and skeptical that the truth will ever be learned. Only one in 10 Americans believes that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. More than seven times as many think Oswald did not act alone.

The same large majority of Americans believes there was an official government cover-up. By 74 percent to 13 percent, the public thinks there was an official cover-up to keep the public from learning the truth about the assassination."

By THOMAS HARGROVE
Scripps Howard News Service
More than a third of the American public suspects that federal officials assisted in the 9/11 terrorist attacks or took no action to stop them so the United States could go to war in the Middle East, according to a new Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll.
The national survey of 1,010 adults also found that anger against the federal government is at record levels, with 54 percent saying they "personally are more angry" at the government than they used to be.
Widespread resentment and alienation toward the national government appears to be fueling a growing acceptance of conspiracy theories about the 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.
Suspicions that the 9/11 attacks were "an inside job" _ the common phrase used by conspiracy theorists on the Internet _ quickly have become nearly as popular as decades-old conspiracy theories that the federal government was responsible for President John F. Kennedy's assassination and that it has covered up proof of space aliens.
Seventy percent of people who give credence to these theories also say they've become angrier with the federal government than they used to be.
Thirty-six percent of respondents overall said it is "very likely" or "somewhat likely" that federal officials either participated in the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon or took no action to stop them "because they wanted the United States to go to war in the Middle East."

Bernice: I thought subjects were allowed to be changed? my bad

I saw a poll where two thirds of the people think that one third of the people are ignorant idiots.:

The Usurper:   Since when did polls become scientific data?  Those are perhaps the weakest points in your argument. 

Artful Dodger: There are a few conspiracy theories I do support (like this one). I believe it's not right to condemn a "theory" only because it's labeled a conspiracy one. The competent authorities should investigate every single possibility (in the case of conspiracies involving any criminal actions) and provide the results thereof. If they fail to do so, I think a common man has every right to believe that any such conspiracy theory might be true.

   http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123431418276770899.html Staged press conferences??? In my opinion He screwed even that up!!!  I like the "nurses can't even read doctors handwriting on prescriptions"  line as a reason as why health care is screwed up .also how he answered most questions with ,,"doing nothing is not an option" even though the reporters were addressing single topics....  he's dropping fast......and don't call me a racist, Its all fair

Pedro Martínez: You make a good point and I shouldn't lump all conspiracy theories together.  I happen to agree that global warming is a fraud and likely there are elements that are perpetuating the global warming myth for personal and corporate gain.  I have no idea how widespread any global warming conspiracy could be.  I see it as more a select few reactionsists, reacting to the normal global temperature fluctuations, and then many others simply jumping on the band wagon.  It's nice to belong to a cause even if it is based on bad science. 

Charles Martel: I'm not sure of your point.Todd and Garrett represent the left and right spectrums of cable news,I don't see how his wanting questions from both these reporters represents anything but fairness

Charles Martel: yeah...because Bush's speach about OBGYN's practicing their "love" on women was soooo much better

Artful Dodger: The poll numbers are not an argument based on direct evidence of conspiracy. What they do indicate, however, is that a large and growing number of people, for some reason, doubt the official stories. Presumably this doubt is based on something, either rightly or wrongly. Your argument is that they are all mentally deranged, and we now have an epidemic new psychological disorder (a diagnosis not made by professional psychologists, however). My argument is that, the more one investigates, the clearer the picture becomes of government complicity in both the Kennedy assassination & the events of 9/11, which results in a continuous growth of awareness among the citizenry as information spreads.

The Usurper:What they do indicate, however, is that a large and growing number of people, for some reason, doubt the official stories.

So what?   That is a meaningless fact.

My argument is that, the more one investigates, the clearer the picture becomes of government complicity in both the Kennedy assassination & the events of 9/11, which results in a continuous growth of awareness among the citizenry as information spreads.

Again, more nonsense.  But you give yourself away.  You are committed to your conclusion before all the fact are in.  And you cherry pick what you accept and what you reject.   In reality, you have no facts to stand on.  And you have a host of experts against you.  There's not one shred of evidence that supports your silly notion that 911 was an inside job.   In spite of all the google searches you've done, you have no proof.  There is nothing I have seen that leads me to believe there is any truth in your claims.  All I see is whacked out theories on the order of little green men living in your ash tray. 

Tuesday: *I dance a lil dance around you....do,do,do,do..(thats me singing) amen!

Tuesday: Thank you for recognizing my attempt to keep this debate civil. In my opinion, it is too important to be approached in any other way. If I am wrong, there are legitimate ways of convincing me and/or others. I agree that Artful Dodger is insulting and, yes, can be tiresome. Neither of these strengthen his position. That does not mean, in itself, that he is wrong, but he could certainly use a more able ally to help support his position. I really appreciate your post. :o)

The Usurper:If I'm insulting and tiresome (isn't that insulting to say that???) then perhaps you can just ignore me. 

On April 19, 1993, the American Jewish Committee released the latest survey on Americans’ knowledge of the Holocaust. This poll was taken by the Roper organization; it interviewed 993 adults and 506 high school students. The results showed that more than 1 in 5 Americans think that it is possible that the Holocaust never happened.

For you math whiz's out there, that's 20 percent.  A significant number.  So should we spend our time finding out the "truth" surrounding the Holocaust?  And did you know that over 25% of Israeli Arabs say Holocaust never happened.  Perhaps we're on to something here. 

It would seem that an increasing number of people believe that the Holocaust never happened.  It was a conspiracy perpetuated by high ranking government officials for making palatable the giving of the Land Of Israel to the Jews.  This fact must be significant (since it's an "increasing number" and therefore we should see out the truth).

Artful Dodger: "Not one shred of evidence"?

Actually, there is massive amounts of evidence that:

1. The invasions of Afghanistan & Iraq were fully planned before 9/11.
2. The goal was control of the oil in Central Asia by a permanent military presence there.
3. That the only ingredient missing was "a new Pearl Harbor" to galvanize the American people into enthusiasm for war & a willingness to finance it.
4. That pre-9/11 investigations by FBI agents into the alleged hijackers were obstructed from above.
5. That NORAD failed to follow Standard Operating Procedure on 9/11, essentially allowing the attacks to occur.
6. That the Twin Towers & WTC-7 came down by controlled demolition.
7. That Flight AA77 did not strike the Pentagon.
8. That Flight 93 was shot down by the military.
9. That the Pakistani ISI (which is connected closely with our CIA) and the Saudi Royal Family (these are our two so-called "Allies") were heavily involved in the implementation of the plot.
10. That many of the so-called hijackers are reported to be alive and well.
11. That the Bush administration strongly resisted an official investigation.
12. That further investigations of official complicity have been obstructed from high levels of government, including the FBI.
13. That the 9/11 Commissions Report contains numerous distortions & glaring omissions, and is a revisionist document at its worst.

Furthermore, each of these points can be subdivided, as evidence is supplied through news reports, eye-witness accounts, expert analysis from various fields, etc., to bolster them. And these are only the points that occurred to me now as I type.

Furthermore, this evidence is easily available to everyone, through the internet, through books & DVDs. The internet is a great source because there are exhaustive compilations of information gleaned from newspaper reports, magazine articles, interviews, etc.

The real issue with you, Dan (as I see it), is that you refuse to acknowledge the possibility that any of these sources of information has provided or can provide "a shred of evidence". And if it is not possible beforehand, then why bother to look at it? I would argue that that is an a priori argument which is prima facie untenable.

Incidentally, for those who are not opposed to "all the google searches", a google search on "evidence 9/11 is an inside job" is profitable.

And here are two links. The first is Patriots Question 9/11. There you can quickly & conveniently read what has been said against the official theory of 9/11 by...

160+ Senior Military, Intelligence Service, Law Enforcement, and Government Officials
660+ Engineers and Architects
170+ Pilots and Aviation Professionals
350+ Professors Question 9/11
230+ 9/11 Survivors and Family Members
190+ Artists, Entertainers, and Media Professionals

http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/


The second link is One Dollar DVDs. Here the organization, Veterans for 9/11 Truth (of which I am a member), supplies a plethora of documentaries about 9/11 and other subjects at the affordable rate of a dollar a DVD.

http://www.v911t.org/21_DVDs_Truth.php

Artful Dodger: I would prefer to look past your insults and tiresomeness to get to the heart of your objections, if I can, so that I can respond to them. :o)

Artful Dodger:Wouldn't you think a good moderator would account for maybe 10% of the speaking time of a discussion forum ?--he/she is the “invisible hand,” not the wannabe star. In my opinion a good mod is like a good umpire. Never leave the game having the players and fans talking more about the umpire than the game.

ps * are you aware that when a person is born they are only given an "x" amount of copy/pastes to use in their life and then it's over ?

awesome: 

The Usurper: I have just one question.......aren't you the same Ursurper that tried and nearly succeeded in bringing havoc to this site a few years ago with your "crap" with the TNP = take no prisoners rubbish and all the "taking" over of all games?

How do you expect to be someone who is considered creditable after all that rubbish. If you weren't the instigator then you were one of the leaders....

CCP is something anybody can do and I ask for YOU to prove what you are saying about the holocaust, 911, and anyother thing you are debating.

Is it me or are you trying to force your opinions on us as you have been known to do in the past?

Artful Dodger: he/she is the “invisible hand,” not the wannabe star


hehehehehhe..................see.....you just sit there and moderate....dont you DARE to have a conversation on your discussion board....you are a lousy mod. ROFLMBO

Bernice: He has the right to voice his opinions on matters he find important to him.  And many people don't know about the KM group so it's not relevant to them.  Maybe awsome and a few others share his interest in 911 and if so, they can discuss it and debate it all they want.  I'll stay out of it as I've made my thoughts clear on the matter and there is nothing else to say.

Bernice:  I know, I suck at it.  I'm not sure how to calculate the 10% but I do have a calculator in my accessories folder.  That may help.  I'm still trying to google for the rule but can't find it.  I'll probably die tomorrow anyway as I've used up my cut and paste quota by now. 

Artful Dodger: no perhaps they dont know about the KM group....true.....

and if they want to keep 911 alive and debating something that will outlive all of us well ..do so I guess.

He has his rights to voice them but it gets a bit mundane and same ole same ole when it is the same ole same ole......oh well

Artful Dodger: well that will make you nd the CCP king to go tomorrow as well....one funeral to attend

Bernice:Kennedy was killed in 63 and they are still arguing about the facts of his assassination.  It will never end.  I suspect the same will be true of 911.  No matter how much is said, and even if an independent investigation were conducted, unless the results match the conspiracy theorists agenda, they will not be satisfied.  Said another way, unless the world agrees with their point of view, they will continue to press on ad nauseum. 

In The News:

For many months Operation YouTube Smackdown has effectively shut down almost 15 thousands terrorist videos posted on Youtube and this has caused a lot of anger among the cyberspace terrorists. Operation YouTube Samckdown is a group of patriots who took upon themselves to prevent spreading terrorist propaganda on Youtube. We have an ongoing thread here on FR about this operation and it is posted by Freeper StarCMC.

Artful Dodger: I wonder what the theories will be about the fires that are burning good Australian residents to death will be. I guess it could be taken as terrorists but why do it in the wooded areas (forests) do it in the cities where more people will cop it. Whole towns are burned and gone, small places with only a few hundred residents....cities with hundreds of thousands would have been more sense if it had of been terroristic. IMO

Could you people start posting some stuff cuz my daily percentage is nearly 50 for today and I gotta get it down.  With this post I'm probably over 51!  Any thoughts on this:

From the Cafferty File: Is stimulus plan “theft”?

??

(ps, we need 165 more posts to bring me down to my 10 percent quota so please hurry as I have a bunch more copy/pastes and links to share.)

Thanks  ;)

Bernice: To answer your questions:

1. Yes, I was a naughty boy a few years ago and a part of the KM scandal. As a matter of fact, I was the first to expose the scandal, and to publicly apologize for my part in it. I certainly am not, and never have been, a saint.

2. I do not believe I am trying to force my opinions on you either now or in the past. I am arguing a case, which is a type of persuasion, certainly. But my appeal is to facts and to evidence, not to a demand that you think like I do simply because I am a voice of authority (which I don't pretend to be).

3. I have said nothing about the Holocaust. Nor have I rendered an opinion on the little green men in my ashtray Dan alluded to. I am debating the truth about 9/11. I have also indicated my opinion on the assassination of President Kennedy, but that has not been my focus or the main topic of debate.

4. I am very much trying to "prove" my position on the 9/11 conspiracy, by appeals to logic, to common sense, to evidence contained in books, by providing links, by answering objections to the best of my ability, etc.

5. This morning I copied & pasted information on polls about the Kennedy assassination & 9/11. To the best of my immediate recollection, those are my only two copy-&-pastes, and I clearly indicated them as such. If I have pasted before, it should be clear. The vast majority of everything you have read in my posts are my own words.

6. I agree that my previous shinanigans with the KM does potentially damage my credibility. I wish that I had not behaved so badly, but I did. Nevertheless, there is nothing I am asserting in my 9/11 argument that cannot be verified through the links I have provided & others, or through your own independent research.

7. In the end, the truth about 9/11 does not stand or fall on my own qualifications as a debater, or on my moral character, which naturally is mixed. It stands on facts alone. And my KM experience, naughty & sometimes wrongfully hurtful to others as it was, does not disqualify me either from researching the facts about 9/11, reporting some of the results about my research here, or urging others to research for themselves what I consider to be the central political event of our generation.

Bernice:  Great, you ask me a question and now I have to answer so now I'm up to 20 posts for today and that means I'm still over 50 percent!  Oh well, now that I'm here, I have an answer.

You see, the Australian government set those fires.  The current theory is that the fires were set deliberately but the "who" isn't known.  Likely it was secret government operatives with orders coming from the highest branch of the military.  The reason?  Unknown at this point.  But like all good conspiracies, we'll just keep digging until we get to the bottom and find the "truth" (or find some reasonable explanation that we can adopt--which ever comes first).  And like all those committed conspiracy theorists, we will explain away any and all official explanations and only accept those explanations that support our conspiratorial views.

Or something like that.  ;) 

The Usurper:  Well I've made my position clear and I have no interest in rehashing this topic as I've discussed it on several other forums.  My view hasn't changed over the years and it's unlikely you will convince me here either.  But feel free to engage others and I will stay out of it and keep my tiresome insulting comments to myself. 

Artful Dodger: Thank you, Dan, for your gentlemanly remarks. And I also appreciate the welcome fact that, as strong as your opinions may be and as fiercely as you assert them, you nevertheless do not interfere with the posts of myself & others (as moderator), even when some of those posts have been firmly opposed to yours. For this, I commend you.

The Usurper:  I'd respond to that but I'm way over my quota for the day. 

Artful Dodger: lol

Tuesday: I wish to God I had your wit.

Tuesday: lol. I'll bet.

Bernice: He has his rights to voice them but it gets a bit mundane and same ole same ole when it is the same ole same ole......oh well

When it is the Usurper it's same ole same ole but when it is AD with the same ole same ole your their with your pom poms out and ready to cheer him on

Bernice:

I wonder what the theories will be about the fires that are burning good Australian residents to death will be.

Thats an easy one for me... its the do good greenies to blame for this one

Artful Dodger:

From the Cafferty File: Is stimulus plan "theft"?


Nobody needs to comment.... everyone knows the dems have been itching to rob us all blind for many years now, there is nobody who is not a socialist or even the communist party loves the dems right now, who can defend this "stimulus", its a joke, the average tax payor is going to have an extra 13 bucks a week????

Tuesday:

and I love what Awesome said. Amen. :)

Amen??? Really???

I can agree that a good moderator should be like a good umpire, and not be noticed or become more of the story than the story itself....

But AD has not actually even moderated one single post... how could he, as a moderator, be any less intrusive????

Typical liberal mindset, really.... ignore facts, logic and any common sense!

...and dont come back to me complaining that I say everything is a liberal blah blah blah... you put an "amen" to what awesome said, yet what he said actually makes no sense at all when you apply facts and logic and common sense to it, same with 90% of liberal arguments

I haavent heard one liberal on here before the election say anything other than "Obama is for change" or some other tiresome blah, nothing ever of any substance, but why not?

Because you dont even know what that change is meant to be..... if anyone would at least come out and say it, say "I vote democrat because I think the best thing for this country is for the government to take as much money from its citizens as they need to do everything for us and to control our lives in every way possible, and Navcy Pelosi and harry reid know more about what is best for me than i do, that is what I think is best for our country"...

Well, I could respect that, and I would at least know that you have put some though into it, and you have some ideals etc....

But when you "Amen" an asinine statement, and vote for some fantasy changes, well, thats liberalism in a nut (case) shell