Artful Dodger:

> Fossil fuels can be harvested efficiently and cleanly.

You are echoing the oil industry propaganda machine. The oil industry is neither efficient nor clean. Look at some photographs by artist Edard Burtynsky. He photographs the reality that the oil industry does not want end consumers to see.

http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/

Look at his works under "Oil".

This one is here in Alberta where I live. The Keystone pipeline is supposed to bring oil from here to the USA. This placed used to be a virgin boreal forest over bogs and ponds. Is this picture "clean and efficient"?

http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/WORKS/Oil/Oil_Book_Large/EXTRACTION_and_REFINEMENT/016-OLF_ALB_07_07_Oil.html

Every year migratory birds land in the tailings ponds and get covered in oil and toxic waste. We need oil, but that is not an excuse to be chanting praises of "clean and efficient" for the oil industry.

Jack:

> http://unknownjournal.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/%E2%96%BC-report-the-kochs-their-nazi-past-american-oil-the-foundation-of-republican-ideology/


"Erich Koch had been in charge of Prussia for Hitler so his ties to the Soviet Union ran deep. A few years later the Soviets took Fred Koch’s oil and prosecuted Erich for war crimes – Fred Koch returned to the US, became anti-communist, and was allowed to do business in the States again."

That article is pure mumbo-jumbo. There is no relationship between Fred Koch and Erich Koch except that they share the same last name. Fred C. Koch is the son of a Dutch father. Erich Koch was born in Prussia and died in prison in Poland for his war crimes. The American Kochs were never communists or members of the communist party of the Soviet Union. Fred C. Koch tried to do business in Russia and became "disenchanted" with communism. Most likely he was always an anticommunist and went to Russia as a spy. Like all westerners, he wanted access to the oil in the Caspian Sea basin.

Nazis and Communists hated each other. Anybody who claims otherwise is merely ignoring the historical reality of the deep hatred between nazis and communists.

The second article:

http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/new_world_order/bush_nazis.html

is quite good. I saw something very similar in Webster Tarpley's biography of George H.W. Bush:

http://tarpley.net/online-books/george-bush-the-unauthorized-biography/.

Prescott Bush and Samuel P. Bush were nazi sympathizers. Over the decades that followed WW II the American government has tried to sanitize their image. However, their involvement as bankers to Friz Thyssen and his nazi blood money cannot be erased from history so easily. In fairness, just because Prescott Bush was a nazi banker, it does not meant that George H.W. Bush or George . Bush are nazis. They might be right wingers, even imperialists (if one interprets their actions as such), but the sins of the father not necessarily visit the son and grandson.

As the world’s biggest windfarm opens off Cumbria, critics continue to question the turbine boom

Less than a week ago 106 mostly Conservative MPs wrote to the Prime Minister, urging cuts in public subsidies to UK windfarms, on the grounds that these towering turbines were neither efficient to run nor pleasing on the eye. Yet today sees the opening, in Cumbria, of the world’s biggest-ever windfarm, the switch-on to be performed by Ed Davey, the new man in charge of energy and climate change (his predecessor Chris Huhne having temporarily pulled the plug on his political career).

So while Westminster continues to provide an ever-renewable source of Cabinet ministers, it also houses plenty of people who are far from fired up by the prospect of green power, as provided by a 150ft wind turbine. Reviews of windfarms so far read “stupid” (Lord Lawson) and “absolutely useless” (Duke of Edinburgh). Their comments have now been amplified by the MPs’ letter.

(V): There really isn't any renewable energy source that at the moment can replace our fossil fuel needs. That is not to say that it isn't possible but we're a way off.

Fossil fuels can be harvested efficiently and cleanly. Until there is the necessary new technology that is affordable and more importantly, available in plenty, all this talk of green energy is just talk.

(V):"It's a disaster, just like with a plane crashing, oil tanker/field leak.
Compared to Chernobyl, or the 'accidents' elsewhere it's no way near
the scale."

This is not true radiation is nothing like these things. Radiation cannot be recovered and is just a disaster waiting to happen. You cannot bury nuclear wast underground permanently it's only out of sight until the containers deteriorate. Even France that depends almost entirely on nuclear power is starting to convert to other sources of energy.
Getting rid of nuclear waste is also a corporate scam that the taxpayers have to spend their money on to get rid of what these energy cons produce.

Your right V about American potential for green energy we have several good sources and need to start using then to their fullest.

Artful Dodger: Clean fossil fuel power plants?

"are both affordable and efficient."

Renewable is. You guys in the USA have so much untapped power. Solar especially, California sits on a goldmine of geothermal.

Jack: Until we develop and install green energy sources.. we need current tech. There are pro's and con's with fossil and Nuclear. N' corruption seems at the moment to be higher in the fossil fuel business.

"like I said we cannot even handle the nuclear waste we have built up so far and we want to create more."

Yes we can... it is buried underground. Same as the way to deal with fossil fuel plant emissions of CO2 and actually make it 'clean'.

"I would like to see anyone prove the Japanese nuclear disaster does not have a negative impact on the world and it's food supply as well as the near future deaths it has and will cause as well as many birth defects."

It's a disaster, just like with a plane crashing, oil tanker/field leak. Compared to Chernobyl, or the 'accidents' elsewhere it's no way near the scale.

(V): Ha! We agree. But what are those other sources? I'm for fossil fuels until we have viable alternatives that are both affordable and efficient.

(V):Yes we have to use other sources but nuclear is not one of them V. Their is to much corruption between the nuclear watchdogs and corporations and then like I said we cannot even handle the nuclear waste we have built up so far and we want to create more. I think that is very poor idea. I would like to see anyone prove the Japanese nuclear disaster does not have a negative impact on the world and it's food supply as well as the near future deaths it has and will cause as well as many birth defects. It's always the innocent people that get the bullet in the head.

Jack: There is always present the natural background radiation. This is a low level field that we are use to and some suspect helps stimulate the immune system. Studies on people who live in areas with 4x the natural do not show extra related deaths.

Nuclear energy leaves much to be desired. While it is relatively clean, the waste does need burying in deep mines in special containers for a long long time.

At the moment we need a mix of energy supplies to be realistic. More green definitely, but until we have battery systems that can store green energy at a sufficient level, we need other sources.

(V):<b> Their is no such thing as good exposure to radiation it all builds up in your body over time.

Our NRC just approved more nuclear power plants to be designed by GE one of the biggest corporate scam companies ever devised. We can't dispose of the nuclear waste we have now and they want to create more.

The world needs green energy not more corporate scams.

Jack: Radiation is a tricky one, depends on what type (alpha/beta,etc) and what isotopes.

(V): I have little faith in governments that declare areas to be safe after they have created these disaster zones.

Even with radiation like the recent release in Japan the agencies responsible for putting out warnings just up the safe levels of radiation people can stand which is nothing but more support for corporations paying off government officials to keep their products moving.

Worldwide people have to stand up to corrupt officials and stop listening to mental cases like Beck, Limbaugh and Murdock.

Übergeek 바둑이: I'm just waiting for him like the founder of the Mormon religion to find some golden tablets.

"he probably thinks that at some point he will recover his TV show as people forget some of the stupid things he has done in the past."

Will the 400+ advertisers that boycotted his program forget.

Jack: Our gov experimented with Anthrax on a little island off Scotland during WWII... In case the Germans went onto using chemical/biological weapons.

The island is still unsafe for human habitation, with any still remaining anthrax spores possibly active for 100's of years. It has been officially cleared as 'safe' after decontamination and the removal of topsoil. But people 'unofficially' consider it a place to avoid.

(V):

> These revolutionary groups are funded by George Soros and the whole thing is being orchestrated by America's most famous community organiser, President Barack Obama.

I imagine that Mr. Beck wanted to rally up people like he did in the USA but it backfired on him. Rather than admitting that he was wrong, Glenn Beck goes on a tirade against George Soros and the president. Glenn Beck is delusional. Just because George Soros donated a lot of money to Obama's campaign it does not mean that they are both some communist conspirators bent on taking over the world. This shows Glenn Beck as a narcissistic and paranoid. Well, the idea for him is to continue in the public eye so he can keep making money. Somewhere in his mind, he probably thinks that at some point he will recover his TV show as people forget some of the stupid things he has done in the past.

(V): Our motives are not always filled with good intentions But we should know better today. America used captured Nazi war criminals to develop it's jet engines as well as it's rocket motors. We uses Japanese war criminals to develop our bacterial and chemical weapons.
Our politicians glorify these actions instead of being ashamed of them.

Our methods are seldom filled with the good intentions we propagandize. It seems like we are doomed to keep making the same mistakes over and over at the high cost of innocent lives.

Jack: Reminds me of one little point about Von Braun... Before he was head hunted by the USA (as he wanted to be).... he was designing the V series of weapons. The intent in the end was to build ICBM's (V10) capable of bombing the east coast of the USA with a warhead that would probably been of nerve gas, or if the tech came together... nuclear.

Never mind that his ideas killed 1000's of UK citizens or that he knew his weapons were being built by slave labour, of which 20,000 died from the hellish treatment he received.

(V):

Beck was never anything but comedy central material. FOX used him and
dumped him. The Marxist nonsense these wing nuts keep harking on is a
fantasy dreamed up by Koch lobbies and supported by Murdock.



These
people outright support communism. Their support for union busting and
attacks on organized labor has it's roots in the old communist Russia
government. It has been proven that the Koch tea party corporate lobby
has it's roots in Communist Russia which the Koch family was a charter
member.



Some interesting information about the Koch and Bush Nazi ties.

http://unknownjournal.wordpress.com/2010/10/06/%E2%96%BC-report-the-kochs-their-nazi-past-american-oil-the-foundation-of-republican-ideology/

Report: The Koch's, A Nazi Past, Oil & The Foundation of The Right

Ilse, the grand mother to these Koch billionaires was the only female Nazi to be tried and convicted of war crimes.



 Note: This article's author,
John Loftus, is a former U.S. Department of Justice Nazi War Crimes prosecutor,
the President of the Florida Holocaust Museum and the highly respected author of
numerous books on the CIA-Nazi connection including The Belarus Secret and The
Secret War Against the Jews, both of which have extensive material on the
Bush-Rockefeller-Nazi connection.



">http://www.tetrahedron.org/articles/new_world_order/bush_nazis.html



Koch was also a member of the Russian communist party before he immigrated to America.

The Koch and Bush families are the most vile traitors to ever cross the Atlantic.



The biggest problem with free speech is that scam artists like Beck and Murdock get to abuse it and become millionaires off it.

Glenn Beck is extremely upset with how he is being treated by former colleagues at Fox News because of comments he made about Occupy Wall Street. Beck appeared on his old friend Bill O'Reilly's program last week (view clip) and expounded upon his theory that the protests are not an organic uprising of disenchanted Americans, but a global movement with Marxist roots led by several revolutionary groups like the Service Employees Union and Working Families. These revolutionary groups are funded by George Soros and the whole thing is being orchestrated by America's most famous community organiser, President Barack Obama. O'Reilly gave Beck's theory the benefit of the doubt, but Fox News ace reporter Geraldo Rivera, was less kind, saying Beck's words were "harsh at best, paranoid or delusional at worst". Beck did not take kindly to Geraldo's insulting dismissal of his theory and accused him, in turn, of being a sheep (view clip).

"... For anyone who's thinking about Occupy Wall Street and saying, "you know, they made a good point," we're going to do a little critical thinking today and one of them is this. When the lion lays down with the lamb, that's when Jesus comes. In the meantime, the lion eats the lamb. Another name for lamb? Sheep! Stop being sheep, America! Otherwise, he will eat you!...."

Did Glenn fall asleep to this movie??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STA0u6kQB4w&feature=related

Artful Dodger: Can't help seeing things you might not. Different education system. Different country... different history

(V): You do love to spin.

Artful Dodger: ?? But... but, I thought game playing was part and parcel of this board.

But you are wrong to a degree.... Not just Bill

(V): don't play games. We both know what you meant. Spare me.

Artful Dodger: Did I say Bill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy4gRGic11k&feature=related

just saying

The liberals favorite networks are the ones that tell only part of the story. In other words, they lie by omission.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/cenk-uygur-cuts-peter-schiff’s-mic-during-heated-discussion-over-crony-capitalism/

Jules really likes this guy

(V): And anyone watching O'Reilly over the years know that you are referring to him with the "shut up" quote. But let's see....that was years ago. And he's only ONE program. That's why your argument is weak.

As for cut the mic, that's appropriate for some blowhard that won't answer the question and only wants to filibuster. I'd cut more than their mic.

(V): Oh I read it. After I finished laughing I posted my reply. I wasn't sure if you were trying out some comedic material or if you were trying to be serious.

Artful Dodger: Nope...... you just misread

Or having nothing to say but nothing so you just spin

(V): Lol you keep changing you weak argument,

* I said it was old school, eg NOTW.. Not that Murdoch is some strange UnDeAd creature living forever, or the mAsTeR from Dr Who.... going back and forth manipulating history!!

And when the Liberals come on that start saying things the presenters don't like... "Shut up" .. "cut the mike".

I've seen it

(V): Truth is Jules all networks do much of the same. It's a competition remember? As for dating back 160 years, it couldn't have started with Murdock now could it? ABC, NBC, CBS, and ALL THE OTHERS do much the same as the presentation is the thing.

As I said, you grasp at straws.

In truth, people ought to get their news from a variety of sources and a variety of perspectives. I always watch the network world news in addition to other sources. But I know that unless I did deeply, I'll never hear the full story on any news program. They only have a few minutes to present the top highlights of any newsworthy item. No cable/tv program can do a story justice. And no one source can provide one with every ounce of truth there is to be had. There's always the Paul Harvey element to any story.

But with Fox one does get a more balanced view. Liberal views are presented alongside more conservative views. That approach sells. One-sided sloppy journalism such as MSNBC does not.

The Geek likes Russian TV. Well, he gets what he pays for then. They are hardly advocates of truth. They too present a slanted view as does PBS and BBC. There's always a slant. Question is, to which direction does the slant lean? Not speaking of left or right here. Fox leans on the side of what's factually true. The others not so much. CNN comes close. PBS covers issues well but they too have a left lean. It says so in their memos. It's up to the viewers/readers to sort things out.

Like so many, you simply dismiss Fox outright. That's a red flag. And you're only proof for anything is your babble. You speak a lot, but say nothing. If I wasn't already bald, I'd get a bald spot from scratching my head.

(V): Yes our supreme court ruling on corporate personhood was just conflict of interest that the justices are allowed to get away with and created an outlet to allow super PACs to buy votes and elections.

Artful Dodger: Nope. If you look back at the history of the now sacrificial lamb "News of The World" you'll find that much the same dating back 160 years.

Such like "the Sun", "the Daily Mail" have been doing similar for decades.

The info is from wikipedia.. duhhhhh

(V): BTW, where did you get that info as you didn't use quotes and didn't reference a source. Are you trying to claim those are your own words?

(V): Wrong. I see none of that. It's all new school. You just make this stuff up as you go. You're like the losing team who stays on the field even though the game is long over.

Artful Dodger: It's old school tabloid.

(V): so what???

Artful Dodger:

From the beginning, FNC has placed heavy emphasis on visual presentation. Graphics were designed to be colorful and attention grabbing and to allow people to get the main points of what was being said even if they could not hear the host, through the use of on-screen text summarizing the position of the interviewer or speaker and "bullet points" when a host was giving commentary.

Fox News also created the "Fox News Alert," which interrupted regular programming when a breaking news story occurred.

To accelerate its adoption by cable companies, Fox News paid systems up to $11 per subscriber to distribute the channel.[16] This contrasted with the normal practice, in which cable operators paid stations carriage fees for the programming of channels.


...and again just watch the channel.

Jack: Ideally it would be nice if there was a cap on donations. Something they are looking into doing here in the UK to a degree. The idea that someone can and will spend $15 million on the campaigning in a single state is nuts!!

"McConnell said in a public speech the only goal the republicans have is to get rid of Obama and republican politically correct think this is good leadership."

It's crap. Yet the gravy train of lobbyist paid lunches, cars and jobs for life after office is one great big tank of swill for those who feed indiscriminately.

(V): I knew you couldn't provide examples. You have none.

(V): The problem is, you have your "facts" wrong. And rantings are not evidence. Most people know the difference.

V the American public is the most uninformed people on the planet when it comes to politics. People look to the corporate media for information on politicians  that is readily available to them through their political history support and votes they take. The politically correct are always ready to cover up the digressions of their favored party. It's the straw man creations created by the hate mongers that give American politics a bad name. The constant bickering in support for corrupt corporations and fascism that is over taking the government. The support for corporate war where no threat exists.

Obama is not a good leader but is much better than what the republicans have put up to run against him. The hate mongers can't stand it because the president has a good solid family life and pays his taxes instead of off shoring his money to hide it. McConnell said in a public speech the only goal the republicans have is to get rid of Obama and republican politically correct think this is good leadership.

If American voters become any more uninformed about what they are supporting we won't have to bother about any recovery because their will not be anything left to recover.

Artful Dodger: The evidence is clear.. just watch some Fox. Just like Fox paying networks to take up the broadcasting of their show is clear.. the accounts tell the story, being that they have to be published.


"Facts are stubborn things. But if you like straws please, continue to grasp. "

That Fox is the most distrusted channel... along with the surveys that show Fox news causes people to become more ignorant about the world.

.. or is that just religious led conservatism?

Artful Dodger:

> Sad for you that you have to resort to a dishonest appraisal of Fox so that your ideology can be pampered.

Like I said, Fox is not a bad network. I just don't find their style of reporting appealing to me.

Well, I find that no news channel is balanced. I said that I find it better to see several channels rather than limit myself to one.

As for my ideology, for it to be pampered I would revamp every channel. I would kill all advertising to begin with. Then I would set reporters to truly ionvestigate what politicians are doing and uncover the veil of secrecy that politicians use as a way to "protect the public and national security". I doubt that politicians want transparency or honesty. They want to carry on as always, favoring the wealthy and powerful and using the masses as mere tools to secure their power. No channel would ever report like that.