Hello all. I would like to express my disappointment in the new games "small pente" and "small Keryo pente." I am going to try not to make too big of an issue out of this, because previous discussion on the matter was not very productive.

I will address some points:

1) I saw someone post that "the small pente variants should be fun." The person did not elaborate, and I cannot figure out HOW exactly the games will be more fun than the existing versions.

For starters-- Some of you might be confusing pente with Reversi or Go, two games in which the play origniates from the center and radiates ourtward, until it reaches the edges of the board, almsot filling the board.

Pente DOES NOT DO THIS. Pente does not come anywhere NEAR filling the board, so I don't see any reason for a different sized board!

In reversi and GO, the different sized board makes for a shorter or longer game. THIS IS JUST NOT THE CASE in pente. So again, why the different sized board? I don't see any reason.

No, the only real difference between "small" pente and pente is the lack of the opening restriction in the "small" variants. I believe this to be detrimental to the game of pente. There is little reason for ANYONE to become effective at playing pente WITHOUT the opening restriction! NONE!

Some of you may be thinking that "small" pente will be good for beginners because it is simpler and easier to understand without the restriction.

To this I say:

1) The opening restriction in pente is NOT difficult to understand, and
2) "small" pente, without the restriction, IN NO WAY PREPARES PLAYERS to play real pente WITH the restriction. Players who play "small" pente without the restriction WILL GET THRASHED when they start playing real pente; thus, playing "small" pente will actually retard the growth of a pente player. To further this point: In May, a real time tournament will be held in Oklahoma City. Myself and several other top players will be there, and there will be cash prizes. The games will, of course, be played with the restriction. If someone who showed up to play had become familiar with the "small" pente variant, he would be in bad shape, because he would essentially be accustomed to playing with rules that allow illegal moves. This would be akin to allowing pawns to advance 1 or 2 spaces in chess at ANY point in the game. That is just wrong, and allowing a player to learn the game under that incorrect rule would inhibit that player's growth as a chess player. Playing pente without the restriction is equally wrong.

In summary, I would jsut like to make it crystal clear that I am thrilled with Brain King and what Filip has done in such a short time. I am here at this site to stay, and I am pleased with how receptive Filip is to new ideas.

But, with all due respect, I must say I think the creation of these new pente variants is a serious error. Just because a variant CAN be created doesn't mean it SHOULD be created. We should strive to avoid the reckless creation of variants that add little or nothing to a game while possible or likely detracting from the game.

Someone should look through some IYT Keryo pente games and find examples of games that were won by player 2 as a result of player 1 not being able to use the edge due to the smaller 13X13 board.

See, it is very difficult for me to prove that there is limitation of player 1's advantage, but, it CAN be shown, by example, that it does reduce P1's advantage if some examples are found.

On a non-serious note-- how about pente on a 5X5 board? I bet that would SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the frequency of wins by player 1!

Walter, you say "Why is it so hard for you to see logic in playing Kerypo Pente on a different size board? Your resistance and anger over it puzzles me to no end. The main reason it continues to go on is I like to argue. "

Yes, I too like ot argue. And, the reason I cnanot see the logic in what you are saying is because I think your argument is devoid of logic. Why play a game on a different sized board without a good reason? Yousay I have doen nothing to rebut? I have done plenty to rebut, you have done little to support the case. I don't think this has turned into a fight, just a discussion hwere neither side oiis convincing the other. I very much doubt that you have any clue about my level of happinesss derived from pente or anything else, so you might want to refrain from making such com,ments. I don;t pretend to know your enjoyment level from doing anything, and I think your assessment falls into the category of the close-minded and argumentative type of posts thar you are accusding me of.

Walter, I'll tell youwhat kind of person I am. I am a person who bases his statements on logic and reason, not random suppositions that cnanot be supported.


I take issue with your comments about my Keryo play at IYT-- that was my FIRST TOURNAMENT! I had just learned how to play Keryo pente, I had played the rand total of 4 games in my life until that point. As you can see from my stats for Keryo pente at DSG, I am more than just "so-so" at Keryo pente.

THe reason I do not see things youer way is not because I decided to shut you out for the sake of it, but because you are not providing adequate support for your argument.

Last I checked, the goal of player 1 is not to make a pente along the edge of the board, yet you keep talking about that as if it is. OK, on a 13X13 board, player 1 has less chance of making a pente on the edge. here is what I say:

1) so what? player 1 can make a pente somewhere else then!

2) PLayer 2 also has less chance of making a pente on the edge. Remember, whatever board player 1 uses, player 2 has to use also!

You say I am interfewring with your leaqrning and enjoyment? What a ludicrous comment. If you don't like strong opinions, donlt read my posts.

I guess this is getting to the opint where I am being a pain in the as about this, and I don't want to become known for being difficult to get aliong with. But, I just don't uinderstand why this thread of discussion is going onas long as it has. my thoughts:

a 9 X 9 board? what is the point??? I really don't see the logic in that.

also, you say "I think the smaller board cuts down on the advantage of going first in Keryo Pente, but not in regular Pente. Gary and Dmitri agrue otherwise ..."

of course we argue otherwise, you are not presenting any reasons whatsoever for WHY this would reducep layer 1's advantage! Are you trying to say that player 1 naturally tends to "Branch out " more and neeed the extra space more than player 2? I don't understand how you came to that conclusion, and it doesn't make any sense to me. You hope that Gayr or I accpet a challenge on a 13 By 13 board without the restriction. WHy? what purpose is served by this? As it is, Player 1 wins more often than not WITH the restriction, so why would player 2 do better WITHOUT it?

In my games with the restriction, most of the time, as player 1, I am immediately in a powerful and dominating position. As player 2, I win because player 1 screws up.

I am very frustrated that we are STILL discussing a 13X13 board. There is no such game! you say

"Dmitri...Official rules or not? Is Keryo supposed to be played on 19x19 board? the game is complicated enough on the 13x13 board!....the edge can be used, which has a advantage and a disadvantage...."

The 19X19 board (the CORRECT ONE) does not make the game any more complicated, it just makes the game function better. Running out of room is NOT supposed to be part of the game, that just isn't what it is about!

As for your stats.. I had a bit of trouble following what you were saying. Were those your IYT stats? I have to disagree with your assessment that the advantage of going first is slim. It is huge! player 1 has an extra stone! it only takes three stones to take the iniattive if not defensded, whereas two stones cannot provide a serious threat. So, after 5 stones, player 2 is defending the 3 stones player 1 has, and then player 1 places a 4th stone, andp layer 2 is trying to stay alive, etc.

As for Pro pente, the advantage of player 1 is huge. at IYT, I was something like 160-6 as player 1 in my last 166 games. $ of those 6 llosses were careless screwups of the misclick variety in games where I had a winning line worked out but carelessly misplayed it. My win% as player 2 is nowhere near that 96 or 97% percent that it is wiht player 1. when top players meet, they often split, as has happened in the October Main IYT tournament. but for mid level and lower level players, the advantage is not as great.

Fencer-- Garey is right. In pente and Keryo pente, the coordinates are not rotated. a piece played at G5, for example, is just G5 for both players; it is not G5 for one player and then N15 for the other. This has caused some confusion, especially since players generally view trhe pente board from the same perespective (unlike chess where each player sees a different board).