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Zmenené užívateľom Übergeek 바둑이 (17. októbra 2009, 20:28:32)
Morse:
Earlier this month we discussed the subject of "appeasement". You can do a search of the board using the small form above the messages. In that topic we discussed why appeasement happened and the different interpretations of it.
I think that WW II was unavoidable both in Europe and in Asia. WW I was a resolution of conflicts that had started going back to the 19th century (and perhaps earlier than that). Germans wanted to have an empire of their own much like France and England had. The problem was tht the world had already been "divided" among the superpowers. For Germany this meant that the only part of the world that they could potentially conquer was Eastern Europe.
In WW I Germany fought against Russia and nearly defeated it until the Czar fell from power and the new Communist government (under Lenin) surrendered and declared peace with Germany. At the time Germany took control of several areas under the Czar's control. For example, the Ukraine, Finland, etc. However, Germany was no able to effectively control those lands and eventually lost them as the German economy sank into a deep recession in the 1920s.
When Hitler came to power he was determined to destroy what he called the "jew bolsheviks". Hitler went on to incite antisemitism, hatred of the Roma (what we call Gypsies) and hatred of Slavs. At the same time Stalin despised Hitler's fascism and how Hitler moved in to use the state to solidify the power of German capilatist monopolies. The conflict between Stalin and Hitler was unavoidable. They both knew it and signed their non-aggression pact to buy time before going to war.
Western superpowers knew this, and they "appeased" Hitler and gave him control of Poland and Czechoslovakia. Their hope being that Hitler would attack the Soviet Union and in that way find the "living space" that the Third Reich wanted. They probably thought that if Hitler was busy destroying the Soviet Union, he would stay away from France and England. The superpowers hated the Soviet Union too, so appeasement was favorable to them. This gave Hitler the impetus he needed to attack the Soviet Union and at the same time build his army to attack France and England.
On the Eastern front Japan had invaded China, Korea, Vietnam and other parts of Asia. The Communist parties in those countries were determined to drive out the Japanese and these communist parties had the support of the Soviet Union. The Japanese also hated the Soviet Union and were determined to build their empire by invading the Soviet Union from the East. They also saw the opening of the hostilities between Germany and the Soviet Union as an opportunity to "divide and conquer" the Soviet Union by attacking in two fronts. The Communist parties in occupied Asian countries declared war on Japan too and that meant that the conflict spread itself over all of eastern Asia.
Western superpowers were willing to tolerate attacks on the Soviet Union because they hated communists. However, they were not willing to tolerate attacks against themselves. When Hitler decided to invade France and Japan bombed Pearl Harbour, the conflict became truly a world war, and it was unavoidable because both Germany and Japan were determined to build their empires.
Zmenené užívateľom tyyy (17. októbra 2009, 20:57:55)
Übergeek 바둑이: Hitler invaded Poland splitting it with the USSR,The Allies responded by declaring war on Germany. Then with little action by the Allies, Hitler then invaded France by going around the Maginot line and into the lowlands, defeating the French (except for Vichy) driving out the British . THEN came the battle of Britain with Hitler hoping to invade England. when he failed... THEN AFTER ALL THAT... he foolishly invaded the USSR. That sequence doesn't sound like appeasement to me.It seems you have a different view of Western intentions Oh I also forgot the invasion of Norway and Denmark which came before the invasion of France.. Hitler really conquered all of the west except for England before turning to the USSR.. So if they were hoping Hitler would go after the USSR first,,, it didn't work out too well. And don't forget the Soviets attempt to invade Finland before all that
GTCharlie: He defeated the French full stop. The Vichy regime was an allowed government by the Nazis in certain parts of France. The regime wilfully collaborated with the Nazis throughout their period of government.
As for appeasement... Our army had lost it's edge, the great depression took it's toll on military research. While the Germans during the 30's steamed ahead. They borrowed (via books and all) ideas that were developed by other nations who had used the books as 'door stops'.. and developed them. We'd seen the Spanish civil war and how well the Nazi war machine worked.. and our government sought time to catch up.
Chamberlain made a deal with Hitler, but set the invasion of Poland as a step to far (mutual defence policies, etc) .... The Maginot line was a throw back from WWI warfare.
Over here in the UK we get taught about the period between 1918 and 1939. That's wear the appeasement attempts took place.
(V): No doubt, my point was that the strategy of hoping That Hitler would attack the USSR Everyone knew first is speculation,the Germans wanted to recoup land taken from them by France in the treaty of Versailles. But remember, Stalin was also an evil man
GTCharlie: Stalin was a very insecure man with tooo much power. Always a danger. He killed the USSR more efficiently then any internal or external enemy. If the Germans had left Stalin alone I recon he would have brought down the USSR quicker on his own.
As for Hitler going for the Russians.. A war on two fronts is never a good thing.
Of course. The reason why the Allies were reluctant to let the USSR become an ally is because Stalin was a cruel dictator. Unfortunately Stalin had risen to power in the aftermath of Lenin's death. The all-out war declared by the Whites radicalized the communist party and gave Stalin the opening he needed to enforce his dictatorial brand of communism and the command economy system. If Lenin had not died things would have been different because Lenin had a more balanced view. Western Europe was not ready to make any openings to communists. It took the Great Depression, WW II and the Cold War for both communists and capitalist to abandon some of their more radical policies towards one another.
We also have to remember that prior to WW II values were different. Welfare Capitalism did not exist. The idea that western culture was meant to uphold freedom and democracy as its main tenets was born out of the WW II and the Cold War. Prior to WW II western culture lived for imperialism. Pursuing great empires was the main driving force behind western economies. Imperialism as evil is a concept that was born out of WW II and the great destruction caused by the empires trying to gain power over each other.
Today we see imperialism as bad and democracy as good, but it is hard to believe that only 70 years ago western culture would rather send millions to their deaths than uphold those values.
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