gogul: Lots of people want Bin caught... unfortunately the USA started the Iraq war as a distraction.

.... was it due to Bin's family calling in a favour?? Who knows!!

(V): Honestly, who cares about the desert jokes bin bum laden and the fairy tale they are reading their lessons from.

gogul: ??? fairy tale???

Tuesday: I don't want to put in words what I feel for figures like these. But it is because of individuals like them and more I like to bath in hate, I too need to be alone at times. Hate or lots of alcohol, that keeps me alone and away from G.W.Bushs decade.

Tuesday: I saw video of waterboarding. Bush and Cheney are no better than the terrorists.


Terrorism is an act to purposely attack INNOCENT civilians....

Waterboarding these non civilian terrorist, you cant see as even remotely different?

We allow NON INNOCENT people here be killed for their crimes, legally put to death... but you dont like that we waterboard some one who has intentionally attacked innocent civilians?

We allow women the right to kill their unborn children, but you cant stand us allowing a terrorist to be waterboarded???


I saw a video of an abortion and anyone who has had one or who has supported the right to have them, are no better than the terrorists

Czuch: You know enough to make tha difference between criminals and workers in the high society? www.amcham.ch/leadership

gogul: no i do not...

Czuch: why are abortions no better then terrorists?? Some archaic old law based on misconceptions of how a baby is made???

As for terrorists, sure they ought to be caught and tried... but torturing them rather screws up the higher ground that those interning the terrorists are claiming to have. You see it's called terrorising a prisoner.

Where is the nobility in that?

(V): but torturing them rather screws up the higher ground that those interning the terrorists are claiming to have.


Thats not true... the higher ground that we claim to have is that we dont target and kill innocent civilians and we dont torture any civilians who are innocent!

You dont think it is torture to make a man walk to a chair and be tied down in it for the purpose of injecting him with something to cause his death?

Where is the nobility in that?

You dont think it is torture to mutilate an unborn baby, like making an omelet?

Where is the nobility in that?

Czuch: No.. your gov agencies just support people that do in the name of democracy!!

As to unborn babies... how do you know they are conscious? To mutilate and torture an unborn child they have to be conscious, and much of the arguments are based on old ideas from Judaism that the sperm is the carrier of life.

Is that enough explanation?

(V): your gov agencies just support people that do in the name of democracy


Really??? Name the most recent civillian that the US government supported to be tortured????

Czuch: Saddam at one stage.. Taliban at one stage, and many others in the name of the cold war. They have all killed civilians.

Or is such info kept out the papers in the USA so you can eat your breakfasts without indigestion problems??

(V): how do you know they are conscious? To mutilate and torture an unborn child they have to be conscious


Really? how do you know they are not conscious?


So, if I take a terrorist and render him unconscious, then cut off his hand, that is not torture or mutilation??? Really?

(V): how is waterboarding torture

Artful Dodger: What!!! You consider repeatedly half drowning someone a nice thing??

If you do.. explain how!

(V): What??? You consider sending a man to his death a nice thing????

If you do... please explain how!


What does being nice have to do with torture? According to your last comments, then anything that is not a nice thing is torture?

Czuch: I never said that.

(V): "What!!! You consider repeatedly half drowning someone a nice thing??"

You're the one making the claim that it is torture. I'm asking you to explain why.

Artful Dodger: I just did explain.

"half drowning"

And please... waterboarding was just one of the methods that Allied troops have been accused and taken to court over. So your other post is rather moot don't you think.

(V): simply saying "half-downing" is not an explanation. Besides, you're wrong.

Give an explanation of waterboarding. Why is it torture. Explain it. Be exact.

Artful Dodger: Ok.. Get someone to half drown yourself repeatedly, and then report back to me how it feels.

(V):  That's not an explanation.  Please explain how waterboarding is torture.

And your "half drowing" is inaccurate. 

do you even know what waterboarding is?

Artful Dodger: Yes....

"...is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages, causing the captive to believe he is dying...."

You think that is nice??

If so, explain how.

(V):  Nope.  It simulates the drowning reflex.  You need to be accurate here.  It cannot harm you.  It only simulates drowning.   It's meant to be unpleasant.  It's NOT meant to be "nice."   But in now way can permanent harm come to the person.  And it's ONLY been used in very rare cases and only after all other methods have failed.   It's only used when there is sufficient reason to believe that lives are at stake and that information is necessary to save the lives of one's fellow soldier or US interests. 

And it's not been used since 2003.   One can only guess why it keeps being brought up considering the facts.

It beats beheading too.   And I notice this board (as well as world opinion) concentrates on the three waterboarding episodes and ignore the hundreds of beheadings.   I'm against beheadings but have no problem with waterboarding.  It can't kill anyone.  I only scares the crap out of ya (not to mention it also scares vital information out - which is the point).

Artful Dodger: Really, it cannot harm you.... Are you sure, I suggest you check

Have you heard of Dr Keller?

And as such there is no confirmation for the purposes of training it is not used.

(V):  Even McCain thinks it's torture.  But he's wrong.   It's appropriate to use such a technique if the stakes are high enough.  As a matter of routine, or just to bring unpleasantness to a person, then yes you are right.  But in the right context, Keller is all wet (no pun intended.)  It's not torture.   It can be used as torture but it's also a useful interrogation tool.  And if your family's life were at stake, you'd use it too.  As for me, I'd go right to the tougher stuff like snipping off fingers or well placed electrodes if my family's safety is at stake.  If a terrorist means to do me harm or my loved ones harm, or if he/she has information that could save lives, I'll use whatever I can and the terrorist be damned.  But that's me.  The US military has very strict guidelines which is why waterboarding has only been used 3 times.  Three.  THREE.  And only in these rare cases was it employed as a last resort.  It's nonsense to be against something that ultimately saved many lives.  The people it was used against were cold blooded murderers.  I have no sympathy for them. 

Artful Dodger: Keller is a doctor, they have an oath remember

And torture was used (waterboarding being one method) more than "THREE" times.

And there are other methods to obtain info without torture. I mean whatever happened to all those truth drugs, psychics, lie detectors, etc??

(V): Have you heard of Dr Keller?

I fail to feed google with that

(V): the waterboarding stuff.

Is someones hands bound behind the back on a radiator to give a special treatment to ones face torture or just beating? It's the daily mess in Chinas uncontroled police offices...

(V): Some archaic old law based on misconceptions of how a baby is made???




explain the misconception of how a baby is made then? I mean, you can obviously accept that we are an evolving creature from the point of birth into adulthood and beyond, right? But you cannot accept that we are the same evolving creature from the point of our conception?

The notion that a woman has a right to do with her own body as she wishes, i will not argue, and so too for a man..... but an unborn child is not a part of a womans own body, the womans body is simply the incubator for the unborn baby....


how can a sperm, injected into a woman by a man, be then called part of the womans body???

If I pick up some diamonds from your table and swallow them, are those diamonds now part of my body, which I have the right to do with them as i please????

Tuesday: Being the US does not give anyone the right to torture no matter what

Okay, so you dont think that making a man eat his last meal and then walk himself into a chair to be executed is a form of torture? I sure do, and just like you think that waterboarding you would be tortuous, I feel the same about someone leading me to my death chair

Tuesday: "On the human scale Bush and Cheney are just as bad as the terrorists."

"It's human nature to want to retaliate against barbarians....which Bush and Cheney are."

If you say you wanted Bush to succeed, you meant succeed at YOUR ideas not his.

Frankly I don't care about Bush any longer as he's NOT the prez. Obama is and Obama's record is worse than any recent President INCLUDING Carter.