(V): Fact: Except for murder and rape, it admitted, "Britain has overtaken the US for all major crimes."

As for guns in the UK: "in the summer of 2001, gun-toting men burst into an English court and freed two defendants; a shooting outside a London nightclub left five women and three men wounded; and two men were machine-gunned to death in a residential neighborhood of north London. And on New Year's Day this year a 19-year-old girl walking on a main street in east London was shot in the head by a thief who wanted her mobile phone. London police are now looking to New York City police for advice."

The crooks already have guns.

Unintended consequences of an unarmed populace: Only the crooks now own guns.

"From 1991 to 1995, crimes against the person in England's inner cities increased 91 percent. And in the four years from 1997 to 2001, the rate of violent crime more than doubled. Your chances of being mugged in London are now six times greater than in New York. England's rates of assault, robbery, and burglary are far higher than America's, and 53 percent of English burglaries occur while occupants are at home, compared with 13 percent in the U.S., where burglars admit to fearing armed homeowners more than the police. In a United Nations study of crime in 18 developed nations published in July, England and Wales led the Western world's crime league, with nearly 55 crimes per 100 people."

and

"the 1953 Prevention of Crime Act, which made it illegal to carry in a public place any article "made, adapted, or intended" for an offensive purpose "without lawful authority or excuse." Carrying something to protect yourself was branded antisocial. Any item carried for possible defense automatically became an offensive weapon. Police were given extensive power to stop and search everyone. Individuals found with offensive items were guilty until proven innocent."

Artful Dodger: Yes... some do and we'd like to keep it that way.

And please... 16 year old stats are pointless.

... If the robber in the USA see you with a gun and then runs.. You then shoot him in the back. What then?

I'd rather have a society where gun crime is rare than common.

(V): Yes. Rather pointless because things are WORSE in the UK. Good point. And thank you for making my argument for me.

Artful Dodger: Worse then what? US gun crime rates?

.. You like the idea that you might have to shoot someone because guns are so common... Is that Christian?

(V): Only your criminals have guns.

Is it Christian to kill someone? It's not Christian to murder someone but it certainly isn't Christian to allow someone to be murdered when you can stop it. So you're saying you'd let an intruder kill your entire family rather than shoot them?

(some guy comes into my home, threatening my family, I'm NOT going to put on a pot of tea and day, "come on, let's discuss this." I'm going to shoot.

AND IF I SHOOT it will be like the police shoot. To kill. To hurt my family, the intruder goes through me. And one doesn't own weapons unless one intends to use them if necessary.

Artful Dodger: But in the UK as guns are a rarity when it comes to crime... we don't need guns to defend ourselves. We have the right to defend our property, even to make 'booby traps' or otherwise make burglars lives ... unpleasant.

"one guy in the UK ran over three people in his car killing all three of them! That's just ONE car and ONE hit. No gun can do that. "

Oh yes one gun can... some can take out a small group with one shot. But with guns, most have a number of rounds. Some automatic assault weapons can be fitted with 150 round mags.

.. Or a automatic shotgun with a 30 round mag that fires them off in a few seconds.

(V): I agree that you have far less gun crime. But you also have some politicians and prosecutes that go after the innocent to protect the sacred gun law. If I'm a prosecutor and a victim shoots someone threatening his property and family but uses an unregistered gun, I'm going to say that I understand why he fought back but to please register his gun now. I'd give him a week and then confiscate the gun if he didn't comply. But I wouldn't arrest him. We have stupid prosecutors like that in the US as well. The law serves the people and not the other way around.

Artful Dodger: In the UK he'd probably get off, if it can be proven he had due cause with the killing. Such is the law here. The gun will be confiscated though... or at the very least rendered unusable.

I can by law protect my property and family here. By the nature of little gun crime. I don't need a gun.

I'm also aware of some stats over how killing people affects people. About 90%+ are affected by it and can lead to trauma. A small percentage are those who are not affected mentally. Then there is the small percentage who enjoy killing... they generally end up in the army, dead or in jail.

(V): I don't own a gun either but I do have a samurai sword

Artful Dodger: ....old English tradition. Staff. It gives good reach at 5-6 foot in length. Handy.

(V): Yeah, that's what I'm talking about! In the right hands, those can be very effective weapons. Plus they are good for taking hikes.

Artful Dodger: Most household items have a potential to be a weapon. or... a worrier... as in make the attacker nervous and doubt themselves.

(V): That rather makes my point. It isn't only guns that can do violence. Actually, guns don't "do" violence, people do. Guns likely make it easier.

Artful Dodger: If your point is you don't need guns.. yes. Unless you live in a state of constant fear of any assailant having a gun... then I see the need for choice.

... Guns do make killing easier, and more likely. I see some 'family feud' ended up with several dead through gunfire in the US..... that is something we don't need commonplace in the UK.

(V): You don't need a gun until you need it. I don't need a gun normally. But when confronted with a home invasion, it could mean the difference.

Artful Dodger: ... It could also mean the assailant takes up a threat of violence to killing... it could mean the assailant runs off...

...... No guns ... less risk of death... imho a better chance for any quick minded defender to have the upper hand and drive off any burglars.

(V): the assailant is probably less likely to choose the store equiped with firearm protection

The Col: .... but then a shooting war in a 99p store just don't seem right.

(V): when is it right
I would still rather be armed when faced with someone looking to do me or my loved ones harm.Being undermatched doesn't seem like a scenario that would provide more safety.You too might reconsider as you're being requested to squeal like a in the back room of a shop by the bad guy

(V): I'm not so sure that is true. Either way, who would want to play the guessing game with some thug? Not me. I don't own a gun and probably never will. But if someone comes into the home of someone trained to use a gun, it's not going to go down well for the bad guy.

IF I did own a gun, and someone broke into my house, and I saw that they had a gun, I'd empty my gun on them with no questions asked.

When police shoot an armed suspect, they shoot many many times. That's because unless they are dead, a wounded person can still shoot. So they shoot to kill. That's the way to do it.

Artful Dodger: You've been watching to much TV....

"I'd empty my gun on them with no questions asked."

N' if their friend is just around the corner... you lose... they duck, you miss... you lose.

(V): Nope. I don't watch tv shows. Only Fox news.

Artful Dodger: Ahh a graphic novel.... but I have to be careful in saying that. Comics and the like can be quite a cult thing.

"Plus my big mean dogs would take a bite out of their crime. "

unlikely.

(V): They bite me all the time.

(V): I'd have more clips for their friends too. Plus my big mean dogs would take a bite out of their crime.

Artful Dodger: and of course they ARE fighting the Irish....well there are still idiots with bombs etc.......
but it is the UK, and nothing bad happens over there like it does in USA....YEAH RIGHT...........

Bernice: Yeah. I think there will always be conflicts. And like you say, a gun isn't the only weapon that can kill people.

Tonight will tell the tale. Let's see how Britain handles the rioters tonight. I hope they kick some major butt.

Now wouldn't it been nice if a car load of Navy Seals, experts in the martial arts, were to drive through an area and be stopped by a few thugs. Then the seals emerge from the vehicle (the windows were tinted dark) and each thug is grabbed by the throat. Then two seals emerge from the trunk and they proced to beat the living tar out of the thugs. This scene is repeated over and over again.

How many times that night do you think the words, "Oh Sh*&!!!" were said that night?