Iamon lyme: this was a well coordinated attack and planned for a long time. Obama is over his head.

Artful Dodger: Just like 9/11 ... Clinton warned Bush, others before the attack (as in other country's intelligence agencies) warned Bush... he went on another holiday.

(V): well Bush is no longer president so perhaps we ought to focus on the one who is!

Artful Dodger: You could, but then history becomes a rather fragmented oddity.

Like the House Republicans cutting the budget on embassy security funding by over $400 million dollars over the last two years, that the Obama administration warned that the cuts would be “detrimental to America’s national security”.

See, that is a fuller picture we have now.

(V): "You could, but then history becomes a rather fragmented oddity."

so history makes it ok for the current administration to ignore vital facts and allow the deaths of its fellow Americans?
and because of history..its ok for the current administration to pass the blame on our civil liberties?

most of us have neanderthal genes...does that make it ok for your neighbor to drag your wife out of your house to his by the hair screaming and kicking?

Bwild: Which vital facts.. sorry, but so many get used it's hard to keep track.

"and because of history..its ok for the current administration to pass the blame on our civil liberties?"

Your liberties have been eroded for years... decades, to some degree centuries.

Are you talking about the video, free speech?

"does that make it ok for your neighbor to drag your wife out of your house to his by the hair screaming and kicking?"

No, nor does it make it right for the husband to do it, but we hear of abuse cases going on around the world.

(V): basically it's not history..it's the here and now.

Bwild: "here and now" encompasses alot of things.. your gonna have to be more specific.

(V): how much more specific can now be,Jules?

Bwild: Death of Americans kinda now... it's not new that it's happened.

(V): then why ask me? It still didn't matter..it was now then

Bwild: Because some events keep happening, it's not new. Will it really infringe on your liberties.. no.

(V): [ Because some events keep happening, it's not new. Will it really infringe on your liberties.. no. ]

But if we sit back and do nothing about it.. yes.

Liberties are not determined by random events. They don't just pop into existence for no apparent reason and for our convenience. It takes effort to get liberty if you don't have it, and effort to keep it once you do have it.

Iamon lyme: Making offensive material regarding another religion is a liberty that needs to be kept? Burning flags, bibles, Korans??

(V): Compared to what? Making it illegal for girls to get an education? You have a little girl in your country right now, to protect her from further harm by people who tried to kill her as she was walking to school. How does that compare to the freedom to express yourself... which by the way happens to be a freedom you've already made it clear you support. Are you suggesting such freedom should be limited to only you and the people you agree with?

How are able to take a position one day, and the next day you are against that same position?

If making offensive remarks against religion is such a bad thing, then why do liberals go out of their way to lie about and make offensive remarks and materials against Christians?

Iamon lyme: Wow.. such drama..

"If making offensive remarks against religion is such a bad thing, then why do liberals go out of their way to lie about and make offensive remarks and materials against Christians?"

Who says they are offensive?

You just basically made my point valid.

Thankyou

(V): You had a point?

AD was right, it is easier to be a liberal. I've been working too hard at this, when all I really need to do is to randomly type words onto a page. And they will with no effort from me or anyone else randomly self organize into the same brilliant analysis you are able to achieve with eyes closed and mind preoccupied by thoughts of splendicious grandeur. That's my theory about house work, but it hadn't occurred to me until you hadn't mentioned it that this is actually a universal truth. It's how we evolved from lower forms of life and then de-evolved into liberals... not all of us, but some of us have. I did too until I didn't.

The perfect example of this principle in action is house work. I don't need to do anything, because aside from the fact that any work is offensive and no should have to listen to anyone tell them they need to work at anything, including making sense at a game site message board, everything will eventually self organize... the clutter will disappear and everthing will become clean, and every item I have will eventually through nothing more than the random forces of nature be located precisely where it should be. In fact, I could speed up the process by merely wanting everything to be as and where it already is.

What could be easier than that?

Iamon lyme: Yes. You've decided that Christians can be insulted by liberals.

You were not born with that thought. Jesus does not teach that thought. God certainly cannot be affected by any critical analysis of the ol' Elohim... Further more as God is beyond religion.. Elohim is not Christian.

So what exactly is it that hurts Christians (in your mind) that is being said?

Can you give an example??

(V): My point is if freedom of expression is something we both agree about, then why do liberals applaud that freedom when Christians are criticised and defamed, but deplore it when Islam is treated with the same lack of respect?

I don't disagree with you in principle, I'm only pointing out how liberals don't seem to believe freedom of expression applies to everyone. In principle, yes. In practice, no. They choose who deserves that freedom and who doesn't according to their own beliefs, and demonstrate it by their actions. If you don't think this is what has been happening then you haven't been paying attention, or you agree with the nonuniform application of freedom as practiced by liberal politicians and pundits.

Who was arrested and hauled off to jail in the middle of the night for placing a crucifix in a jar of urine and displaying it at an art gallery? No one. But someone who disrespected Islam in a stupid video was arrested and hauled off in the middle of the night and is currently sitting in jail. Why? Because the president didn't want to take responsibility for ignoring a request for more security for an upcoming attack that had nothing to do with that video.

It wasn't just a stupid maneuver, it was a lazy quick fix that will probably do more to inflame Islamic hatred for us than to sooth them. They are not idiots, even they know the video had nothing to do with an attack they had been planning for months to be carried out on or near September 11th. Honestly, how hard would it be for someone to find a youtube video that could insult anyone?

Iamon lyme: Yes, but I include responsibility with that freedom.

"then why do liberals applaud that freedom when Christians are criticised and defamed, but deplore it when Islam is treated with the same lack of respect?"

If (here in the UK) a Church, Synagogue, Temple, etc is attacked, they are all treated the same by the police and get the same equal rights when it comes to any problems.

"They choose who deserves that freedom and who doesn't according to their own beliefs, and demonstrate it by their actions. If you don't think this is what has been happening then you haven't been paying attention,"

Again, I have to go by the UK laws.. everyone has the right to practice whatever religion they want, as long as they don't use it to commit any crimes, or expect their 'church' to be above UK law. If (like with that Islamic cleric now extradited to the US) they start spewing what our UK law states is hate speech, then they will have to answer for it.

"Who was arrested and hauled off to jail in the middle of the night for placing a crucifix in a jar of urine and displaying it at an art gallery? No one."

It's not specified in the Bible as being a holy object like The Koran says about Muhammed. I'm use to a country where "Jesus Christ" is an expression and the name of Logos. We make the sign of a cross as a joke when it comes to things like.. bad farts, or making fun of someones bad make up idea!!

If someone wanted to here, they could go to the police on any desecration, they could also take it to a civil court. But a case HAS TO BE PROVEN.

.. ok, you say a cross in urine is bad... I would like to know what the artist meant before I could say it was. Sorry, but urine is one of those strange bodily fluids that can be seen as good or bad depending on your situation or what you know. Watching the likes of Bear Grylls it is a drinkable liquid, others say it cures athletes food and is still taught to soldiers as a 'trick'.

As to those militants who attacked the consulate, Libyan protestors have driven them out of their compound and torched it...

"The trigger for the assault on the paramilitaries was a "Save Benghazi" protest after the main weekly Muslim prayers on Friday that was joined by some 30,000 peaceful demonstrators. It drowned out a smaller rally attended by just a few hundred people called by the jihadists and hardline Islamists angry over a US-made film that mocks Islam and cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed published by a French magazine.

Demonstrators paid tribute to Ambassador Stevens and the other Americans killed in the September 11 assault on the US consulate in the city that Washington now says was a "terrorist" attack.

"Libya lost a friend," read one banner. "We want justice for Stevens," said another.

Jihadist militants of Ansar al-Sharia fired in the air as they retreated from their headquarters in the face of the overwhelmingly superior numbers of the protesters."

>>>>> Did you read/see/hear that last bit anywhere?

(V): So now I'm supposed to believe liberals feel free to make fun of violent hateful Christians, but fear reprisal from peace loving Islamists? This seems somewhat contradictory in light of what liberals have been saying of both religions.

I must have forgotten how different things are for you ... and how different your laws are from ours. *cough* Nevertheless( or alwaysthemore) the ideology and reasoning of liberalism there sounds identical to the liberalism here. This is just an observation, nothing to get defensive about. This isn't a game of dodge ball unless that is what you want it to be.

Iamon lyme: Didn't say that.

I said if you behave hateful here, it does not matter what religion you are. Christian, Islam, Buddhist, Hindu, Jedi, Scientologist, Wiccan, Druid, Satanist, Atheist, Zen, Rastafarian, or any other ist or ian you can think of.

You want special privileges for Christianity here.. get a position within the CoE high clergy and prove you are fit to be a member of the "House of Lords".

(V): [ You want special privileges for Christianity here.. ]

Didn't say that.

(V): [ Did you read/see/hear that last bit anywhere? ]

Yes, I did. Did you read/see/hear how our (not your) president lied about what caused the Benghazi attack? I remember seeing something about that at this (the politics) board. My memory is sometimes faulty and I could be wrong, so I will do a word search to see if anyone here mentioned it or not.

Iamon lyme: Sometimes the full facts just don't come out all at once.. There were several things going on at the same time it that town on the same day!

Did all the details on who/what/why come out regarding the 9/11 in the first week? No, they didn't.

"[ You want special privileges for Christianity here.. ] Didn't say that."

Ok.. what then? You want God to stop talking to you? The Bible says everything is of God and only our 'human' perception stops us seeing what 'He' is saying? As Stephen Fry points out.. even the stuff we see as really bad.

(V): [ .. ok, you say a cross in urine is bad... ]

Didn't say that either.


You said "We make the sign of a cross as a joke.."

So I said "...now I'm supposed to believe liberals feel free to make fun of violent hateful Christians, but fear reprisal from peace loving Islamists? This seems somewhat contradictory in light of what liberals have been saying of both religions."

How hard can it be to respond to what is actually being said?

Iamon lyme: Right, lets be correct instead of over dramatic. I have nothing to fear from peace loving people of any religion. That you are saying those who attacked and do attack are peace loving is contradictory.. They are militants.. but just those.

Just like in Northern Ireland. Catholics were shooting at and blowing up us and the loyalists, Protestants were shooting and blowing up the Catholics. Most wanted peace, hence the peace talks and an end to the war.... BAR a few individuals who still are fighting as an IRA splinter group or as a loyalist splinter group.

I'm aware that maybe one of those splinter groups could get a bright idea and bomb somewhere I goto, some white supremacist could go on a bombing spree, some terrorist... sorry, lets be correct.. one of these terrorist groups as well as another group such as some Al Qaeda aligned group or individual could go on a killing spree.

Some other Terrorist group could play 'up', as there are many various 'disputes' in Europe and the old Soviet block and many different groups on the watch list.

Rich bored kids with a university education, but psychotic. They use to be the one to look out for.. rebelled against 'mummy and daddy' and off and joined some freedom cause.

... Instead I just go on as normal. Except for that one time I was working in London and there was an IRA bomb scare. We got stuck for 2 hours waiting for the all clear!!

(V): [ That you are saying those who attacked and do attack are peace loving is contradictory.. ]

No, what I'm saying (the meaning of what I said) is the behavior of liberals is contradictory.

(V): Why are liberals afraid of offending Islamists but not afraid of offending Christians?

You said "..lets be correct instead of over dramatic." Does that mean I can look forward to seeing an honest answer to the above question?

(V): I can see how that question might be misinterpreted, so I will rephrase it:


1) Why are liberals afraid to offend Islamists?

2) Why are liberals not afraid to offend Christians?


Again, you said "..lets be correct instead of over dramatic."

I'm looking forward to an honest reply.

Iamon lyme: Who says Liberals are wanting to offend Islamists? Who says Liberals are wanting to offend Christians? All I hear is a martyrdom for christianity and it's weak and cannot handle what people may say or do.. or at least, you can't. That Jesus said is your problem. The dude himself tended to be of a less fragile nature.

"I'm looking forward to an honest reply."

I've answered your questions but you are not lis-ten-ing.

That you hold no respect for Islam or don't understand how we 'liberals' ... ... Is this like Dogma and how Kevin Smith was threatened with death because he made the film by Christians? Peace loving God.. ... hang on... can't say God. Have to say G-d. This post might get erased in time!!

btw.. can you define a liberal, so I don't get confused over what is and what is not as it is differently defined over here.. Guess peace loving Christians trying to blow up Parliament and Maggie as well as various pubs, restaurants and other places, killing thousands... gives you a different perspective nationally. Having terrorists attacking your country for decades just may mean I see things differently to you and have that right.

This was said 6 months after I was born..

"From this day, we declare war against the IRA and its splinter groups. Known IRA men will be executed mercilessly and without hesitation. Less extreme measures will be taken against anyone sheltering or helping them, but if they persist in giving them aid, then more extreme methods will be adopted . . . we solemnly warn the authorities to make no more speeches of appeasement. We are heavily armed Protestants dedicated to this cause."

(V): "I'm looking forward to an honest reply."

[ I've answered your questions but you are not lis-ten-ing. ]

Look again. I did not say I'm looking forward to an honest reply from you.

Iamon lyme: "I'm looking forward to an honest reply."

You were talking to me... or was it Harvey? Ya know.. the big white pooka who befriended Elwood P. Dowd

Great film!!