Dark Prince: ok, I thought you meant there should be a stalemate rule like in chess (draw). So we don't have to discuss stalemate.

Let's discuss the draw rule: what about my proposal?

Dark Prince: I guess you misunderstood me. I actually made a proposal to request a draw rule so you could conclude I think it's a good thing to install one. (my point to Nothingness was I don't see the point in reinstalling a committee, I think it's best to go to Fencer if someone doesn't accept the draw, since he can inforce it, my other point to Nothingness was that I don't see other draw situations needing a rule, much less needing a committee).

My question to everyone; is 60 moves ok? Or do we want 50 moves like in chess?

In my opinion there shouldn't be a stalemate rule in espionage; there's no king, no piece with a 'forbidden' move, like in chess. So if you put yourself in a position where you can only be captured or walk into a bomb, you've lost. It's not forbidden in espionage to do either.

Nothingness: we can ask for a draw rule to be implemented in the espionage rules, and I would be happy to do so as soon as there is a consensus what exactly we want to ask for.

DRAW RULE PROPOSAL: a draw can be asked for after 60 moves of non-capture. (seems a simple and clear rule to me). I would like to hear from you all what you think of this, so I can make the request to Fencer.

A committe only has authority to those who choose to be part of the group listening to this committee, which seems to me to be the people who would already be reasonable. A committee would also have to have a draw rule to apply. How often does the situation occur anyway? I've never had such situation.

@CelticJim: send a message to Fencer:

Fencer

Fencer is the one in charge. Usually he replies fast. I can't imagine he'll declines your requests.

If chess has a 50 move rule and sabotage at IYT has it for some variants, maybe it's best to ask for at least 50 moves for all variants here? Same for all seems most clear to me. 60 moves is fine with me (as cookie monster asked for). Could everyone live with that?

@Dark Prince: With y I referred to your earlier post: To allow for slow starters, the 50 move rule could start at move 25 and the 35 move rule for smaller boards could start at move 15 for the open variations.
50 moves starting at move 50 and 35 moves starting at move 30 for the volcano variations.

Espionage (Dark Prince, 2011-04-13 01:17:20)

If we ask for such a starting point I suggest we ask for the same starting point for all variants.

dAGGER: I think a minimum number of moves with no capture is a good rule to force a draw, if one of the opponents claims for it:
1) it is simple to remember for everyone
2) it helps preventing games to go on years, when only a player is very slow
3) if two skilled and defensive players agree on going on, it does not oblige to end up the game as a draw, if no opponent asks for it."

I agree with dAGGER completely. For this reason I think the rules shoudln't be too different between the various variants, best would be 1 and the same rule (x amount of noncapture moves maybe with an addition of beginning after move y)

We have to come to some sort of consensus if we want to make a request. Justaminute, Nothingness, dAGGER & others: do you agree with Dark Prince's wording?

How about the draw rule, we still didn't make a clear stand on what we want exactly. I would like to approach Fencer for both after we make a decision on what we want.

For the draw rule I suggest we vote on it. We make a short list of possible draw rules as mentioned before (including no draw rule), and vote untill one has a majority of votes. Is that an idea?

Thom27: I guess it's the same effect as we discovered before with capturing an opponent's spy; if (in the same move) you place a piece next to the spy before capturing it, that piece will become visible for the opponent. As long as you know that it's no problem since you can avoid this by capturing the spy first.

What you mention seems to be unavoidedablt by your opponent. They won't even know you know what you captured. This seems to be a bug to me, does everyone agree on that? I suggest we should report it.

Dark Prince: I agree that a capture of a piece is an easy and objective criterium and a clear indication that the game is still in progress. I like your idea to have a 'starting point', only it would be nice to have 1 rule for all variants, to keep it clear.

Maybe 50 moves without capture starting after move 50 for the 3 volcano variants (the small volcano variant is often slower than Fast Espionage) and 50 moves after move 25 for Open and Small fast, to keep it simple?