Übergeek 바둑이: Its simple really.... people dont mind helping the disadvantaged, but they dont want to be duped by them either.

One problem with the whole issue is that most liberals (USA) think it is some kind of civil rights violation to put safe guards in place to avoid corruption. You cant drug test etc blah blah blah.... well to me, if you are taking from the state, then the state has the right to test you for drug use and other "intrusions" that those of us who do not need or choose to use public assistance are afforded.

You have a job and a family, and cant afford an educational tool like a computer for your child, then sure, give them a voucher.... but no drug abuse, make sure the computer can only be used by them and not sold etc....

I think the main point here is, that you may lose some "privacy rights" that most people enjoy, if you take my money to pay for your life, is that too much to ask, really?

Czuch:

>  if you are taking from the state, then the state has the right to test you for drug use and other "intrusions"

I entirely agree with you on this.  People who use drugs and receive social assistance often leave their kids starving on account of their addiction.  I think that drug testing should be mandatory in cases where a social worker suspects that somebody is using social assistance money to buy alcohol, cigarrettes or drugs.  I think that there should also be a mandatory ban of social assistance recepients from casinos and other forms of gambling.  I think casinos should be required by law to turn away people receiving social assistance.  In practice it might be difficult to implement such a law, but the problem is that people addicted to gambling will go and bet away their kids' welfare.

The issue of addiction and social assistance is complex.  I think that if the state imposes mandatory testing, then there should also be readily available addiction recovery programs.  If somebody who wants social assistance tests positive for drugs or gambling, then a mandatory drug or gambling recovery program should be a condition for recieving social assistance as well as strict monitoring of the person's expenses.

The whole objective of social assistance programs is to ensure that the children of low income families receive all the basic needs so as to avoid unnnecessary hardship on low income children.  If that is the case, then drug testing and mandatory recovery programs should be part of the social programs aimed at helping low income families.  People might argue that it is "intrusive" or "inconstitutional", but the welfare of children should take precendence.

Some of the arguments against these programs are also done on a "cost" basis.  People will argue that it is expensive to treat addicts.  However, it would seem to me that in the long run it would cost less to provide treatment rather than see all that tax money wasted away on drugs, plus the economic cost of dysfunctional families unable to work or contribute to society.

Übergeek 바둑이: If you'd make this your political program and propagate it as something priority to handle social problems, then you fail to see that social problems come with missing perspective. To get people to work, to make them indeed "function", all the families comunities etc you need to bust the wall street, that is priority road. You need to get the banks back in the role they are BEST thought for, not a elitary club of avoiders of folk fete. Go figure where abuse is coming from. Most in poverty are trapped in awful difficult lifesituations, and they can figure abuse, coins against BILLIONS.

Übergeek 바둑이: Well look, there has never been more hungry people as these days. Politicians everywhere try them self in patchworking the systems and obviously fail. So, basicly, we'll have a majority of people without work, because our standards of agriculture are getting better, because machines make most of the stuff, and we profitate from migrants willing to work a lot of hours in jobs nobody wants to do. For two decades we were willing to hope that some sort of share holder value would fix all our problems, the very same value that killed all the jobs. Certain people are despered enough to want to push people into jobs which frankly do not exist. In order to create jobs you have to think small-scale, very small scale. This industrialisation not only went a little too far, it's waaay out of hand.

Übergeek 바둑이: ****I think that drug testing should be mandatory in cases where a social worker suspects that somebody is using social assistance money to buy alcohol, cigarrettes or drugs***

One way around this is to implement vouchers for FOOD (with the stipulation not to include alcohol or smokes), Schoolbooks, etc...This would stop Mum and Dad sitting home all day watching tele, smoking, drinking etc while the kids are at school....Under NO circumstances give the dole bludgers money...vouchers only...perhaps this would also help in curbing drug abuse.

Bernice: same should be for child support recipients.

Any opinions on drug consume at the wall street? I know the ways drugs take and what they do to humans.

gogul: Strange though that certain illegal substances are used to keep USA pilots awake and alert on missions.

Maybe less missions rather than pump the pilots up with amphetamines to keep them alert beyond endurance, less friendly fire problems to be certain.

(V):

The use of performance enhancing substances in the military goes back a long time through history.

The Greeks talked of theis soldiers and athletes using small amounts of strychnine mixed with egg whites as a way to increase their strength.  Strychnine acts as a stimulant and increases the strength of muscular contractions.  That practice continued until the early 20th century when amphetamines were discovered by German chemists.

During WW II all sides of the war used amphetamines.  Reputedly British troops consumed 72 millions tablets during the war.  Both the RAF and the US Air Force gave amphetamines to their pilots during long missions.  German troops used amphetamines and testosterone to increase strength and aggression.  Amphetamine use has been blamed for many "friendly fire incidents" into our modern era.

Cocaine abuse has been a terrible thing too.  Cocaines has been very common in Africa among those people using child soldiers.  Rebels in Sierra Leone and Angola would give cocaine to children, then make those children use axes to chop off people's arms and legs.  Cocaine abuse has also been broadly implicated in the wars in Congo and the genocide in Rwanda.

Today special forces around the world use amphetamines, cocaine, and other stimulants to increase strength and alertness.  They also use steroids, growth hormone and IGF-1 to increase strength, and EPO to increase endurance.  This has led to some horrific things happening.  There was a case of a Russian soldier who had his legs and genitals amputated during a hazing ritual and drug abuse among the soldiers was  major cause of the tragedy.

I am a chemist and I despise the drug abuse.  I think our governments turn a blind eye to many forms of drug abuse because it is politically convenient and because government officials themselves are making money out of drug trafficking.

Übergeek 바둑이: Our serious crime squad have as such admitted they cannot eradicate drugs off the street. Their attitude now is that in some cases, if a 'drug dealer' is known by them and causing no other problems (depending on the drugs and level of course) not to bust them. If.. it is impacting on neighbours etc, through related crime.. then they take the attitude of either telling them to clean up their act and the impact of what they are doing or get busted.

It's a matter of resources. Spending 10's of thousands of pounds to bust a person who's a low level dealer... or get the serious nasty distributors and those who's abuse impacts others.

Because quite seriously, as much as it would be nice to have a magic wand and be able to end the problem... it ain't that easy. The resources needed to end abuse are as such to costly and would kill any medical system, and as such... (as Jeremy Kyle would say) they can't do anything until the person abusing themselves wants to stop and face what's in their mind causing the addiction.

The Jeremy Kyle show had one person who hadn't gotten to the point that they'd complete the rehab course they were on.. at £5k+ a time, that is a lot of cash and resources to end drug/alcohol abuse throughout the system.

Bernice: Its the authorities responsability. Who pays decides.

Bernice:

>  vouchers for FOOD

Here in Canada the government tried vouchers for food, but drug addicts desperate for cash were selling them cheaply.  The government has tried a system that seems to work better.  They use a pre-loaded debit card (similar to a credit card).  They can use to buy things, but they can never extract cash from it, and the card is non-transferable.  That has stopped some of the cheating and wasting of state funds.  It is not perfect, but it seems the best solution so far.

Übergeek 바둑이: I doubt it, all it's done imho is made another chain in the process to obtain drugs. They buy whatever (on the card so the gov don't see anything) and then have to barter those goods for their addiction. If someone is that desperate they will find a way.. and if someone is that desperate.. then someone will take advantage of that!!

Then the related problems of shoplifting, theft.. Quite honestly I think it's just passing on the problem to the people and businesses just to say... "we are doing something"