Tuesday: It's like the flood... There was one big one same as there was a volcanic eruption that gave way to the Reed sea having a Tsunami but telling also.. Noah got drunk after all his work, his kids got ashamed of him. Stories within stories.

Tuesday: Cain was a story about jealousy.

Tuesday: Genesis says God breathed life into a body God made.. two seperate things .. a body and a lifeforce we generally call spirit or soul or both. By putting life into a body it implies that the body is just a vessel for life.

Tuesday: Not right v wrong.. it's about what is life.. a bolb of complicated carbon based life only or a organic robot carrying a life.

Tuesday: No there are two bodies. But babies can be born parasitic and by the nature of a pregnancy there is not quite a parasitic relationship, but it can be a battle.

.. without certain hormones the woman's body will treat the baby as a foreign organism. The baby attaches and feeds off the woman and cause harm in order to gain independent life.

But that is the biological machinary designed so complicated organic life forms can reproduce.

Another factor to consider. What happens if the woman who has been raped cannot stand carrying the child? Such trauma can take a LONG time to heal. If she chooses to discorporate.. then what?

Jim Dandy: It is said that the pill was a great shock to the male ego. No longer did being fertile mean having a child. It became a choice women could make.

Tuesday: They.. are an endangered species, we've been killing them for sport.. this is not sport. Ban abortions and you'll go back to the times of backstreet abortions. That was a barbaric time with many women dying from botch jobs. Yes, I agree abortion is not nice.. but so can dying from being told your body is not yours when it comes to some things.

Jim Dandy: Yes it is. But not as sensitive as it is to the babies in the womb that feel the pain of being killed. We have grown so callous about abortion and are more concerned about offending the sensitivities of others than we are about killing an unborn human being. Let's not bring up topics that might offend but hey, let's slice and dice those little ones sleeping in their mommy's tummys.

Artful Dodger: Please waterboard me for invoking this topic, it's very sensitive

Jim Dandy: Defend those facts.

Abortion has never been a woman's rights issue. That's a smoke screen. It's a human rights issue and a civil rights issue. There's big money to be made ripping unborn children from the womb. They get boiled in acid and then have their little legs, arms, body, and head ripped apart. In the procedure that Obama approves of, they are partially born, turned upside down, a needle is injected into the skull and their entire brain is sucked out. The skull is collapsed and the dead child removed. It's discarded like a piece of garbage.

Pro choice folks mostly want a sterile discussion centered around the woman's right to choose. The reality is that we're killing off future generations. The history of planned parenthood can be shown to be racist. consider this:

Planned Parenthood is the largest abortion provider in America. 78% of their clinics are in minority communities. Blacks make up 12% of the population, but 35% of the abortions in America. Are we being targeted? Isn't that genocide? We are the only minority in America that is on the decline in population. If the current trend continues, by 2038 the black vote will be insignificant. Did you know that the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was a devout racist who created the Negro Project designed to sterilize unknowing black women and others she deemed as undesirables of society? The founder of Planned Parenthood said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated."

Several years ago, when 17,000 aborted babies were found in a dumpster outside a pathology laboratory in Los, Angeles, California, some 12-15,000 were observed to be black."

--Erma Clardy Craven (deceased)
Social Worker and Civil Rights Leader

Minority women constitute only about 13% of the female population (age 15-44) in the United States, but they underwent approximately 36% of the abortions.

According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, black women are more than 5 times as likely as white women to have an abortion

On average, 1,876 black babies are aborted every day in the United States.

This incidence of abortion has resulted in a tremendous loss of life. It has been estimated that since 1973 Black women have had about 16 million abortions. Michael Novak had calculated "Since the number of current living Blacks (in the U.S.) is 36 million, the missing 16 million represents an enormous loss, for without abortion, America's Black community would now number 52 million persons. It would be 36 percent larger than it is. Abortion has swept through the Black community like a scythe, cutting down every fourth member."

A highly significant 1993 Howard University study showed that African American women over age 50 were 4.7 times more likely to get breast cancer if they had had any abortions compared to women who had not had any abortions.

Tuesday: global warming

Tuesday: At the rate men are becoming sterile, abortion might become illegal strictly based on the survival of the human race.

Jim Dandy:

Jim Dandy: So what? You've explained nothing.

Jim Dandy: that's my position. So I don't see it as causing a stir. The ONLY time abortion is justified is when the life of the mother is in immediate threat. Unfortunately, even this "immediate threat" has to be defined. It means that if the mother continues with the pregnancy, there's a huge chance she will die.

The reason I'm against abortion would prohibit an abortion even in the case of rape and incest. Otherwise my position would be inconsistent and irrational.

Tuesday: Keep in mind, I'm not saying the individual can't keep the rapist or incest baby, just that the mother reserves the right to abort it if that is her wish.

Tuesday: In the medical world, the well being of the mother is the main concern when considering a medical procedure.That can be argued, but it is the accepted order of priority.We could not be further apart in our opinions on this topic, so yeah, we're still in "agree to disagree" country

Tuesday: I don't agree with selective abortion.The decision should never be based on the child either being a future genius, or seriel killer........actually, one could quite easily be both, but you get my drift

Tuesday: The issue may be more complex than I originally thought,but, we still are in "agree to disagree" mode

Tuesday: Would the woman not feel the victim to be forced to carry the child of the rapist against her will?

Tuesday: We can agree to disagree on this one

Tuesday: Are you of the opinion that an individual should be forced to carry a child even if was from a rape or incest?

Tuesday: From progs describing the having a baby.. it is a bit of a fight between mum and baby... that's why things can go wrong. It'll never be a 100% process.

(V): Well,that's where Obama loses me, if he had no intention of dealing with issues such as lobbying, he should have kept his mouth shut on the campaign trail.He has actually broadened the ability for major corporations to spend on campaigns, not limited them

Jim Dandy: No-one has. They are to afraid to face down the big corporations and lose out on the gravy train that comes after being in office. We have the problem in the UK even though there are regs and laws to stop such if caught.

(V): Ending lobbying would go a long way towards putting the power back with the people who elect.Obama has not been helpful in this regard