rednaz23: i started playing there recently for the speed pente option... it seems like most people there know eachother and have a good time... i didnt have any issues with the experience and have gone back several times since when im all caught up here.... its great for live play when you really need a fix....

redfrog: real-time is the only real challenge. P2 has such a disadvantage that in turn based no one should ever lose as P1 if they spend the exorbitant time they have available with their moves to play the best available option. No one ever spends that much time, I know I don’t, so it remains possible for P2 to win. All p2 ever really has is tricks, traps, smoke, and mirrors, if P1 can avoid those P1 will win every time.

Richard III: so really its a flawed game .... we should all quit playing.... at least as P2...wait....ummmmm - or just play speed....lol

redfrog: No, I enjoy turn based pente. It’s just that when both players have the skills and spend enough energy they could play a 2 game match forever winning as P1. Alex Nosovski and I faced this problem together in a recent tour at iyt where we went 9 rounds before one of us prevailed. It’s just too easy to win as P1.

Richard III: It's only a problem at the highest levels. Every strategy game (that doesn't employ and dice, concealed pieces, etc.) suffers the same fate.

Thad: No. Any skill game that has the possibility of a draw does not have this problem because there are ways for P2 to play for the draw as a last resort, which causes P1 to have to take chances, which makes the game winnable for either side. Every time this comes up, I tell whoever will listen that all that needs to be done to fix the P1 advantage at the highest levels of pente is to give both sides the same number of moves. If P2 can pente or take the 5th pair on the move immediately following P1 doing so, then the game would be a draw.

There are other ways of fixing the problem too (different ways of swapping colors early in the game, etc.), but these modifications have always seemed to me to change the essence of the game more than is necessary. As long as there is no way to draw in Pente, the game will be busted, inherently flawed in favor of P1. And that's a shame.

pentejr: What I meant was that any game like this suffers the fate of having it's outcome unchangable under optimal play. Chess is the same way, except that the game is believed to always be a draw if both sides always make the best move.

Thad: Ok, that makes sense, although once you introduce the possibility of a draw, it seems that the proposition hinges on a certain definition of "optimal." For instance, in chess, would it be optimal to play a move that assures you of a draw, or would it be optimal to play a move that risks losing for a chance at winning, depending on what your opponent does? Obviously, if we assume both sides are playing optimally, then you take the draw because an optimal play against your move will make you lose, if there is a chance you can. But people don't play optimally.

But you're talking theory, and I'm talking practice. Point taken.

But wouldn't a drawable version of pente be harder to master (to memorize optimal play) than a non-drawable version? I imagine (but am only guessing, having not done the analysis myself) that this slight rule change would cause most of the major lines to be re-analyzed, as the optimal play of even the most basic openings (wedge, for example) leads to very close games, if both sides play them optimally.