For anyone who is in the Philly area, I just moved back down...I'd love to organize a small group to play OTB once month or so...anyone interested, send me a messgae and I'll try to get things going.

Matthew

I told my wife I found the perfect wallpaper... now I sleep outside...

OK.....I'll say it. I'd love to play Gothic Chest with her!! LOL:)

The official 2004 BrainKing Championship for Gothic Chess is entering into the last open section, round 3. Rounds 4 and 5 will be closed, with section and tournament winners from previous rounds participating.

Win this round, and you get to bypass the semifinals and go directly to the finals. Win your section, and you get to the semifinals next round.

Click the Round 3 signup link to join.

Hunting through some of my old junk, I found the first ever game of Gothic Chess ever played.

Dated July 10, 2000:

1. Nh3 d5 2. i3 Nh6 3. Bi2 Nc6 4. e3 Af6 5. Nc3 e5 6. Ne2 Be6 7. Ng3 g6 8. Ae2 Qd7 9. 0-0 Cd6 10. b3 0-0-0 11. Ba3 Ce8 12. Bb2 Bg7 13. Ad3 Ci8 14. Ac5 Qe8 15. d4 e4 16. Qe2 Bf8 17. Aa4 i5 18. c4 i4 19. cxd5!? ixh3 20. dxc6 hxi2 21. cxb7+ Kxb7?! 22. Axe8! ixh1=Q+ 23. Cxh1 Rxe8 24. Qb5+ Ka8 25. Qc6+ Kb8 26. Qb5+ Kc8 27. d5! Bd7?? 28. Qa6+ Kb8 29. Bxf6 j5 30. Bd4 c5 31. dxc6 e.p. Bxc6 32. Qxa7+ Kc8 33. Cc1 Re6 34. Bb6 1-0

So it looks like ...Af5 will hold off against the immediate Cxi7+, so the hunt is on now for maybe a delayed attack, or some other improvement for white.

<>21...Af5 22.Cxi7+ Kj8 23.Ai5

>And here Chessmaster1000 offered 23...Ah4+ to >delay the invetiable.

>But, why not take the Chancellor with 23...Kxi7 >here? I offer:

>23...Kxi7 24. Ag6+ Kh6 25. Ai5+ Ki7 with a draw.

Yeah you are right. I didn't looked at the position when i've given the line and i analysed everything in my mind, so i thought that after 23...Kxi7 the discovered check would bring to the King big problems and i rejected this line as good for White, but i didn't count the g4 square is guarded so the Queen can't go there.

>Everything else looks to lose for white.

Maybe but i have something else in my mind, and this time i will analyse it on board for not making again such mistakes.

21...Af5 22.Cxi7+ Kj8 23.Ai5

And here Chessmaster1000 offered 23...Ah4+ to delay the invetiable.

But, why not take the Chancellor with 23...Kxi7 here? I offer:

23...Kxi7 24. Ag6+ Kh6 25. Ai5+ Ki7 with a draw.

Everything else looks to lose for white.

Purrdyn sent me the following message, which was given the subject line "WhiteShark":

<after all no cheater like you and softwaremaster500 - and he knows he's got to watch his butt vs me ... >8)

I think all of us who were around when that loser was banned know who this is. This is an unprovoked message I received, just because I complimented WhiteShark on his excellent play.

I suggest that players put that individual on their enemies list at once. Usually he starts with something benign, then he starts posting all over the place to annoy the hell out of everyone.

Well White Shark can't answer as he is a Brain Pawn but i can:)

After 21...Af5 there is the forced(i think) line for both:
22.Cxi7+ Kj8 23.Ai5 Ah4+ 24.Axh4 Ne2 25.Aj5! Cf6 and now the 26.Ng4 or 26.Ci5 wins.

Can anyone find a move for Black to refute the win?

I think 21...Af5 might save the draw (instead of 21... Ag8?? which loses.)

If 22. Cxi7+ Kj8 the white Queen is denied g4 with the Archbishop on f5, and the sacrifice 23. Cxj7+?? would lose here.

WhiteShark, how would you cotinue if 21...Af5 was played?

Take a look at this position:

WhiteShark vs. nantonas

White's Queen is under attack by Black's knight, but the Chancellor/Rook/Archibishop threat cannot be countered, and black is steamrollered!

The Chancellor takes the pawn even with the Archbishop retreating to cover i8. Then, the shark sacrifices the Chancellor to force a mate that cannot be avoided.

All this while shark allows his own king to be placed in artificial peril that would draw even seasoned veterans into the attack that evaporates very quickly.

Be careful where you go swimming with this shark!

Actually, she asked if it would be ok if someone would paint the letters onto her topless, and the 3 men in the room whirled around looking for anything resembling a very small paint brush!
Clearly she is the "prettiest" Gothic Chess player there is. She also holds a Law Degree and is an MD who obtained that training while in Russia.

I am having a blast here on the set, hoping my wife does not mind I am here longer than I thought I would be.

The pictures are being done tastefully, and I will have them online one day next week at GothicChess.org for those who might be curious.

Hi Matthew,

"Chess thinking", as you say, really occurs in two forms in a chess program.

1. Search
2. Evaluation

At some point in time, as the program generates POSITIONS from its move generator, it must stop, and, WITHOUT searching, evaluate the position.

The is called a LEAF NODE EVALUATION, and, at best, it is a crap shoot. The dominant form of the evaluation is material, and because no search is performed at this stage, something deadly can be one or two moves away, and the program does not know it.

The good news: all leaf nodes are in the distant (8 plies, 10 plies, or more) in the future, so, statistically, ANY ONE SINGLE NODE will most likely NOT be a factor in the outcome of the game.

More good news: millions of leaf nodes are evaluated, most are junk and discarded, and this filtering process means that only the "balanced" positions survive to be passed down further into the tree.

So, "chess thinking" is really an idiotic form of trying millions of things that don't work, distilling this down into just one PRINCIPLE VARIATION, which is the analysis you see as the search builds.

The "PV" is the result of all of the lead node evals being passed back and forth through the ALPHA BETA search. The APLHA side always wants to play the move leading to the biggest score for it, and the BETA side always wants to play the move leading to the smallest score for the ALPHA side.

In this way, one side makes the "strongest move", and the other side makes the best reply to it, and so on.

Where the "intelligence" comes in is in the leaf mode evaluation routine.

There are way to encode positions that are known wins/losses/draws so that the leaf node eval will OVERRIDE the material score.

This takes intelligence.

For example, if you have 1 knight, and your opponent has just his king, you would not want that to be scored as +3 pawns for the knight (say + 300) since it is a dead draw.

I am surprised at how many commercial programs will start to search in such a K+N vs. K position and return a +300 score and actually try to win.

Vortex makes no such errors. In fact, Vortex knows NN vs. K is not a +600 score since so many NN vs. K positions are drawn. It will not "dismiss" the position as a mere draw, since a falible player can mess up the ending and walk into a mate.

But, Vortex would prefer two unconnected passed pawns on the a- and j-files rather than having 2 knights, since its evaluation function has intelligence identifying which types of endgames lead to wins.

Vortex can identify ANY position with X pawns vs. Y pawns as a win, even with a 1-ply search! This took a great deal of intelligent coding!! It has a "pawn evaluator" that is pretty much always correct. So, Vortex will sometimes swap pieces like crazy as the endgame approaches, only to be able to take you into an incredibly complex king and pawn ending where it will win with no trouble.

There are many such "patterns" that make up its intelligence. It knows R + P endings well, it knows Bishop + wrong Rook's Pawn draws WITHOUT having to search (meaning the leaf node eval will handle it properly in an instant) and many such thematic ideas that will overpower the material evaluator.

Once I hook up the 5-piece Gothic Chess endgame databases to it in a RAM buffer, its play will be amazing as the endgame approaches.

I am not there yet though.

Anyone with a more academic than average interest in why computers have such a difficult modeling human thought might enjoy reading "Godel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid" by Douglas Hofstadter. It doesn't particularly address the Falkbeer Counter Gambit, nor even the Blackmar-Diemer (sorry, I just love that name), but it does have a rather lengthy and--for me, at least--enlightening discussion on the problems of modeling human intuition in computer language. Be warned: the book is long and as dense as fudge.

FYI, Ed is the author of a pretty mean checkers program in addition to Vortex, and I am always interested in hearing from anyone in the know how "chess thinking", and the intuition you always here about in chess, is mimicked on computers. (preference for non-technical discussion!)

We are glad you are here, WhisperzQ--to play is most of the point of being here. Ed and Rob and Uwe are fantastic, and their sharp play makes us all sharper by exposure; those with lesser power bring other things to the table instead. Both inputs are important. Keep playing.

As for the computer question, insight is more powerful than the calculation. Man the toolmaker can program the algorithm, but the machine cannot program itself, or program insight. The human machine is outfront. I read an op-ed article in Chess Life that machines calculate in chess faster than a chessplayer; in the same vein, a motorboat moves faster through the water than a swimmer, and a forklift can lift more than a weightlifter. But none of the machines initiate any effort to play or to win--they only do what they are programmed or designed to do, and then only when they are told to do so. Sweep the pieces off the board in a rage against the machine, and the computer does not feel any anger towards you; it doesn't care.

You keep playing, and enjoy your games. Those for whom machines are a crutch, will hang themselves on their own ropes. Correspondence chess is a powerful thing.

I would like to try using a checkers program against GI and see if he really can give me one piece advantage near the start and then still beat the program. To me, if someone has that ability, that is totally astounding and if I saw it with my own eyes, I would be in awe.
Does anyone know where you can get a free checkers proggy to use?

I like the suggestion from WhisperzQ that people tell you whether they are using a computer or not to analyze during games. As I said before, I don't mind if people are using programs while playing me because it's legal here at BK. However, it would be nice to know if I'm playing a "centaur" or just a person.

Interesting debate ... I would hope that if I play others using computers that they would tell me before we started.

That is one reason I play atomic chess a lot (although one person has fessed up about using a program near the end of our game, fortunately I beat him :) ... I also play tank battles and tablut for the same reason although I wonder if Ughaibu is not a human computer anyway.

The other reason I play atomic chess is it gives me a chance to be competative at a reasonable level without chess being my life's work or only passion. No offence meant Ed + Caissus + others ... you guys are a long way ahead of where I will ever be. I am but a simple man at heart :)

Thanks, Caissus. One of the reasons I made the switch to Gothic was the lack of strong programs, "uncharted territory" if you will. I don't like the idea of "centaur chess" (although the expression is excellent) and can't wait until we get a full "live gothic chess" site (with a ranking system) that will have otb rules that will prohibit "centaurs" from playing.
However, if anyone wants to use a computer program while playing me here I have no problem with that. You are absolutely right, it isn't prohibited so it isn't cheating. Thanks for the input.

The discussion about using computers in internet chess we sometimes have had on other chessservers.
The difference is,if you play "livechess" (the same like otb-games) for instance at ICC,USCL or Playchess.com,you play only one game at the same time,mostly fast-3 or 5 minutes- and the using of helps is forbidden.The servers can sometimes control it.At playchess.com (Fritzserver) they have a running software,which disqualifies cheaters automatically and every day you can see sometimes such a message in the display : "disqualified because of using chess software".In addition there is a "machine room",in where you can play as "centaur" (=human-machine).

An other fact is at turn based servers.Here we play like correspondence chess,many games simultaneously with long times and both players must not be online at the same time! And in correspondence chess, there are no prohibitions to use helps, advices,computers,books or other things.Neither the "International Correspondence Chess Federation" (ICCF) prohibits something nor the special Brainking rules.And also this wouldn`t make sense,if you cannot control it really.And that`s why all the worlds topplayers in correspondence chess are playing with all helps they can have.:
In the past only with books and common analyzing in the chessclubs,today additionally with computers and big databases.
It is perhaps not a very good evolution for the correspondence chess.It is now "centaur chess", but it is not cheating!
In "Gothic chess" I see there no problems, because the programs are much weaker at the moment as the strong chess programs (like Fritz,Chessmaster,Shredder).The best is if you analyze mainly for yourself.(excuse my bad English)

Thanks for the input Ed! I guess the "if a rule cannot be enforced, it really isn't a rule at all" comment set my mind straight on that issue. I'm also glad to see that you have trouble agains Vortex at the faster time controls. I was beginning to get frustrated with it!

Ed beats Deep Thought in 1989

Ed beats Chinook in 1996

Read what I wrote LongJohn. I do not know of anyone else who beat Deep Thought that has also won against the Chinook checkers program.

Can you name anyone or show supporting documentation?

Did I claim to be the World Checker Champion?

No, I did not.

No need to reply, I will not respond.

if you are "the only person on the planet with wins against the world's strongest checkers computer" does that mean you are the checkers world champ?

Hello Greenknight,

I am probably the only person on the planet with wins against the world's strongest checkers computer (Chinook) and the world's strongest chess computer (Deep Thought) so I think I am uniquely qualified to speak on this subject.

First, while programs trounce us soundly at tournament time controls or quicker (I think there are 3 programs over 3100 at bullet and blitz now) the opposite is true of longer time controls.

When I play Vortex at the rate of 1 hour per move for both of us (while I am doing other work, I just periodically glance at it and move after mulling over to what to do) I am 11-0 with 0 draws. At time controls of 3 seconds per move each, I am about 15-70 with maybe 2 or 3 draws!

Look at some of my games. There is no program on the planet that would make some of my moves. Take a look at Ed vs. Shark for example. Throwing away a Chancellor for Archbishop is "intuitive" for a human player, but totally beyond the domain of the program. At the move shown, I throw away a knight, while already down C for A, and there is no immediate regain of material!

As for programs being used on the internet and elsewhere: if a rule cannot be enforced, it really isn't a rule at all, so just beware of the fact that others are out there consulting with software.

And for checkers, you might think with all of the FREE strong checkers programs out there, honest players would never be able to win a game on here.

I like to throw away a checker, then play most of the game "down a man", only to befuddle my opponents, who may or may not be using software. Sooner or later their greed (keeping my "gift" too long) causes their demise. Look over some of my most recent checker games against the strong players, and you will see what I mean.

Again, no program on the planet can see through the complications that the human mind understands at a glance.

I would say, rise up to the challenge, and dare players to use software against you, then kick their butts by being strategic when they try to be tactical.

You will win every game.

Trust me on this one, I know what I am talking about :)

Just throwing a question out there. Do you think that computer programs should be used while playing other people, on BK or in general?
I personally don't use the new Gothic Vortex engine, or any of the other engines out there, to analyze my ongoing games. I'll use it to analyze my finished games whenever I can remember to download it (sorry Ed, moving has been tough. I'll get around to ordering your wonderful program sometime this week). One reason I stopped playing on the Internet Chess Club site is because I'm convinced that, with longer time controls, people were using computers to help them as they played. I like the idea of playing mano a mano.
I do realize that this is a correspondence site and that the rules for this type of play are a little more lenient but I'm still not comfortable accepting help from anyone or anything (i.e. computer programs) while I'm playing.
I'd love it if some of you would weigh in on this issue and either support my objection to using them or set my thinking straight.

Yeah, Rob left out one very important point. In his game with White using The Quagga opening, he had a vastly superior position after my "flash in the pan" tactic to win a Chancellor for Archbishop after sacing a Bishop for a pair of pawns ended up fizzling out!

I played strategically, content with my false sense of security (plus I was happy that George Ross, the man sitting next to Donald Trump on The Apprentice, called me this evening and left a message for me to call him back! As Rob call tell you, I play best when I am in a bad mood.) Rob systematically got his Archbishop and pair of Knights right in the face of my King, and I was in real trouble (a mate in 3 awaited me if I miscued).

Anyway, that's my version of the events.


But he is right, this little program is cool.

Thanks to Cassius for giving me the programmer's email address.

Hey Everybody,

Ed and I played real time Gothic Chess!!! It works and is very easy to setup!!

Ed of course won...but it was battle with him having 3 seconds left on his clock.

You can change the color of the squares and the font of the game list! Set the clock for any time one wishes to play, and also save the game when your finished, which we forgot to do!

You and your opponent should agree on the time controls 1st because there is no way to change it after other than playing another game in the process. Also, you should give your opponent your IP Address before you start if you are the one hosting the game...IP's change everytime you disconnect from the internet so just keep that in mind when playing!
So have fun and start playing!!

For those who like real-time action with instant updates of the board...

http://www.mailchess.de/netgame07b_setup.exe

Download this, install it, then select the FILE menu, NEW GAME, then pick Gothic Chess from the radio buttons.

Under the SETTINGS menu, select PIECES, then GOTHIC CHESS PIECES, and you are ready to play a live game against someone over the internet without needing a server!

You will have to configure your settings by adding your IP address into a field, but the program will help you get your IP address.

Then you can wait for connections to accept games with you.

Maybe all who have successfully installed it can post what times they will be online looking for games, as well as their IP addresses.

I did. How you pulled his king out so early...nice.

Don't pull out the White Shark's teeth so quickly--how will he eat?
(:D)

Points on April 14, 2004:

1.GC:Enter The Vortex—can we set up a chess team and show the standard players how well we do at the standard variation?

2. Look at Gothic Chess King of the Hill2--it began April 11th. Already things are heating up!

3.OOOhh, Fight! One BKR point separates the two warriors. Look in and see what is happening after the 29th move—it is a tight squeeze. Strydor v HerculesBeast

--at 29.h3xg4, we have Black to move and
*FEN b]5R4/PPKNC4P/3P1A1PP1/3PP5/2a1p5/2p1cp1pp1/pp1n5p/1k4r3.

4. We have here another reason why GothicChess is the Kendo of MindSports!

--Tangram (BKR1988) v Taikoki (BKR1442), Mar 6-20th, 38 moves, white resigns, 0-1!

Well played by our chessfriends, but the plan’s the thing!

New players bring new attacks, new priorities, new strategies.

Once GothicInventor said that if Capablanca had gotten the backfile right, we would perhaps be calling Gothic Chessà”Chess”, and I hope he is right someday! Great games.

Nice attack..:)

The graphics of the chesspieces could be a little bit better.The email is u.auerswald@mailchess.de.
I have found it in a feedbackformular.

I will try it,or you can send him a mail yourself.His name is Uwe Auerswald and you can see, his programs are mostly in English too.But because it is freeware and he creates his programs only uncommercial it will take a while.But I have seen he adds new games from time to time in the new versions.

The idea to play "livegames" with we say 60 minutes for the whole game,would be a good supplement to our turnbased-games here.
One possibility to play "live" Janusgames on the internet (without a server) could be a small freeware from Germany called MAX (Misc./download).
If everybody wants to play such a live match with me please send me a pm.

The idea to play fast,that means "live" with,for instance 15,30 or 60 minutes for the whole game,surely is a good idea.But it should be a separate category of rated games,because it is a big difference if you play correspondence chess - turn-based - with a long time limit using all possible resources or if you play live (like otb-games) with a real short time limit.
One possibility to play live on the internet(without a server) could be a small freeware from Germany called MAX (Misc./download).
Until yet you can play chess,janus,checkers,reversi,go and perhaps can I ask the author to add also "Gothic chess"?

Thank you for the kind offer.

You did a great job, sir, and you are absolutely right--longtime chessplayers are very intrigued with the gameplay, the actual age of the pieces, and their history. It takes their understanding to new levels, and they cannot contest the logic of the pieces. 3 & 3, singular and dual powers, already hinted at in the use of the Rook-Bishop. Or "queen", if you wish. :D

I'll let him know about your offer.

Yesterday I got to share some GC joy by playing a longtime chessplayer 4 games of Gothic Chess, OTB.

He is a sharp thinker by nature, and has been playing chess for 15 years. He played in high school and college, in the military and his police force also has a "team" whereby they play each other and across precincts. No novice to the standard game, we played a couple of tough games which I had the good fortune of winning. I showed him a couple games of FischerRandom to level the field a bit--I won one with Black, and so did he--and then I offered to show him something new.

We played 4 games of Gothic Chess, and the first 3 he traded off the Gothic pieces, to his disfavor. The 4th he kept them on the board, and we had such a powerful game (for our abilities, of course). The end came to pass with me holding my Chancellor and Queen against his Rook and Archbishop. Had he chosen not to attack, I would have had a time prying him out of his "pawn cloud" he spread quite creatively on his queenside. His king ran inside of it as one would a forest. :)

I pried him out of his safe zone after he tried to attack me. After this last game, he talked and talked about how powerful my Chancellor showed himself to be after some enjoyable attacks on my part, and corralled him out of his safe area.

He wants to play again next Friday.

yes, but this count includes the rubbish from the IHateDano - IHateGothicInventor period. maybe a cleanup is called for? it's been done on the other boards

I think a good way to show the popularity of Gothic Chess is too look at how many players are rated - which Gothic ranks 3rd (provisional) behind regular Chess & Atomic Chess.... but then again, Gothic has not been around as long as Atomic either.... so I'm sure that will soon change.

Gothic Inventor taught me that! :)

Thanks, I didn't have "ArchivedGame" capitalized!

<You have to capitalize the 1st letters of the words "ArchivedGame"-->
(take out the asterisks when you add it)
<*a href=/game/ArchivedGame?g=98589*>Game 98589<*/a>

And if you have space at the bottom of your screen, when you put the mouse arrow on top of the "click here" part of the screen, the tag will show up on the bottom left hand side of your screen.
98589

Thanks for the help Ed! I used "Arcivedgame" and switched it back because I got the same error! If you can send me what you posted I'll see what I did wrong. Thanks Again

I can't fix it! Fencer can you help!

Dear CC,

I tried your link, "game#98589," and got an error msg:

HTTP ERROR: 404 Not Found

RequestURI=/game/archievedgame

Powered by Jetty://

-Fx

game#98589
Here is the game everyone!

I don't think I would trade my A for 2N + 1.5P.

Then again, all the pawns might have been easier to coordinate with 3 pieces instead of one A.

I think the Germans pronounce it "TZOOG-tsvahngk." It's a deeply intellectual phenomenon which people are much better at understanding than computers are. It most certainly deserves a different kind of name like this! The machine will be utterly incapable of "contemplating" such an oddity, while the human spirit can pause and look deeply into it, imagining the ancillary implications...

What is a link to this game? Or the game #?

well let's see. Subtract 7 pawns from each side.

2N + 1R vs. A + 2P

Let's convert A to B + N + 1P for the sake of simplicity.

2N + 1R vs. 1B + 1N + 3P

Subtract 1 Knight from each side

1N + 1R vs. 1B + 3P

Let a Bishop be a Knight plus half a pawn

1N + 1R vs. 1N + 3.5P

Subtract a Knight from both sides

1R vs. 3.5P

I'd say your side was doing better.