stronzetti ma come devo fare per iniziare a giocare???

Random Reversi

Single Elimination for 16 players. 1 day moves, NO DAYS OFF!

shmoula: I thank you for excuses. And also the examples. We do not have a system of control of the use of programs. But that are experts players. To make these activities is not a great favor for which they are beginning in the game.

You are a great player, I know it and I know him personally.

It would appreciate that the discussion was not centered in the persone. If John has something to say he can do it. Whenever it follows with a moderate tone. In opposite case we could transfer the discussion to chat private or by messages?

shmoula: Thanks for your reply. I understand about wanting to discuss reversi cheating on the reversi board but the higher ups (Fencer) Has made it clear that he does not like pointing fingers in public or naming cheaters or suspected cheaters as it most often leads to arguements that turn pretty nasty. I don't know of any great way to handle all this so I have asked Sarok if he would help moderate this board since he is very proficient in the game as well as a very trusted player. I asked the global moderators before hand if we could ask him to help mod and they were all for it. He has agreed to help out since this really is HIS game. Volant and I play but I know I will never be more than a novice player at best.

Rose: OK, I apologize. I will respect you as a moderator of this board. I promise this will be my last post on this topic, but I still have something to say.

First, cheating is a problem and IMHO problems should be discussed, not disregarded. And where to discuss cheating in Reversi, if not on a board about Reversi, especially if there is no board about cheating?

Second, 10x10 is a good method. Although there is a program that can play 10x10 very well (and it is almost unbeatable at 6x6), not many cheaters know about it (unfortunately some do). I still prefer Anti reversi because I don't know any reasonably good program and I have noticed cheaters don't play it.

Third, I agree it is hard to tell if someone is a cheater, but not impossible, especially if the cheater is not very careful. I really never accuse anyone unless I am completely sure. I beg you to compare these two games: http://brainking.com/cz/ArchivedGame?g=956421 (note moves g5 and h3, which are particularly tricky) and http://brainking.com/cz/ArchivedGame?g=946267 (note moves c8, d8 and even j9! and i1!, which are particularly bad). When someone (repeatedly) plays an 8x8 game with almost perfect midgame and perfect endgame, something begins to smell. And if his 10x10 game from the same period looks like beginner's, something is definitely wrong. The analysis of a few of his other 8x8 games, either from that period or recent, clearly shows that the perfect play of the mentioned 8x8 game wasn't accidental and unique.

Sorry Rose, but I had to. I never told anyone about any of the cheaters I met here, not even publicly. What made me do it this time was JB's "teaching".

Rose: You have all the reason. Not only exist WZebra for analising the games, are many other programs. But what one treats here it is the comic analysis of games of reversi 8x8. Any players here have experience in play reversi, and know analysis the games only seeing as a game is developed. This site is good! Respect for the players who we did not use programs!
Thus playing only there is one is lain to itself.

I would really like it if folks got off the present topic. If you think someone is cheating then the best thing to do is stop playing them. I know that sounds really lame but at a turn based site it is hard to tell if a person is cheating unless they admit it. I played a few people on here that were using Zebra and once I found that out I stopped playing them. There is a player or two who will admit to using programs in reversi.
Or try playing 10x10 with someone. As far as I know Zebra cant be used on 10x10 board. (If I am wrong let me know)
If there are further posts on cheating I have to delete them and ask that you take them to private messages.

Thanks everyone

shmoula: I do not feel a need to defend myself against your accusations. Such accusations are frowned upon on this website, and these posts will be brought to the attention of the proper administrator. I will continue to play here and I wish everyone good luck in all their games.
Have fun!
John Baker

sarok: Thank you for your support, sarok :o)

shmoula: you are all right. I am with you in everything what you say. Actors do not make lack great... the one that says lies is taken. Please don't play here John!

John Baker: I am not trying to imply that you might be using a program. I am saying that you are using a program. I am an experienced Othello player and I know something about this game. I don't usually boast, but I will make an exception for you. I have played more than 16000 games, I won Czech championship once, I have been to 3 world championships (and I ended up 12th last year) and I have analysed many games of world's best players like Hideshi Tamenori (6 times world champion), Ben Seeley (2 times world champion), Suekuni Makoto and others. These top players sometimes do play a perfect endgame, but generally it is rare. If you are so good, you should have no difficulty qualifying for the 2006 world championship in Japan. I will be glad to see you there and apologise for my accusation.

And yes, I have already screwed up a lot of games that were in my control. That's just what being a human means - making mistakes. Also making a mistake in the endgame doesn't necessarily mean to lose the game. You can be winning 44-20 and end up winning 34-30. That's normal and common.

I have met a lot of cheaters, a few of them even here on BK (as I am sure you know, you are not the only one here). I am not always completely sure if someone cheats or not. And it is not my habit to accuse him if I am not sure. But sometimes it is so clear that I can't resist. Especially if he is so cheeky to start a thread about strategies, trying to teach others. Cheaters are a big problem in Reversi on this server, that's why I didn't extend my membership and I am just finishing my games and not starting any new ones. I prefer real-time servers with a cheating detector. Would you believe that one cheater from BK agreed to play with me on such a server? He would switch to another program before his each move and was cheeky enough to say that it was his firewall :o) Funny.

shmoula: That's funny... It's my understanding that the endgame is the easiest part of a game to play to perfection. In the endgame, the consequences of one's moves are much easier to determine than in the middle of the game. Given 10-20 empty squares left in a game, I think most players would be able to figure out how to most efficiently play it out. It would be hard, at this point, to make a mistake. If you are among those who would screw up an endgame after the game is already in your control, then you could probably gain something from asking questions, as a student would ask a teacher, rather than insinuating the ridiculous. If this is not the case, then redeem yourself by contribuing something of value to this discussion.
Just in case your motive was not to imply that I might be using a program to achieve my results, I apologize for my reaction and submit to you that such perfection in an endgame is not a rare thing.
I'd be happy to continue this discussion with you if you so wish.
John Baker

John Baker: Those are very interesting games, especially your perfect endgame from about 38th move! It is very rare to see such a perfection (from a human player...), and two times in a row, WOW!!!

But seriously... I was soundly defeated by JB, both times. I'd be most interested to conduct a post-mortem.

Would any observers care to offer insight? Are there any particular moves I made which sealed my fate? What would you have done differently?

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414141
http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414142

Both games are now over. As expected, I won both games with scores of 64-0.

;)

gborland: gborland, you are providing an excellent narrative! I'm trying to think of something to add, but you are summarizing the game very well. Does anybody have any questions about the games? Are there specific moves you'd like gborland or I to explain? We both had our own rational behind almost every move, so please don't hesitate to inquire about it if you are curious.
:-)
John Baker

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414142

Move 20.

This is getting really interesting. JB has conceded two X-squares, but has much better mobility and is forcing me into some unfavourable moves. I think I will shortly have to concede a corner.

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414141
Move 10.

I think F6 is a bit of a weak point for me. If we start playing in rows 1 and 2, I risk flipping the whole of column F leaving me in dire straits.

Although JB has more pieces than me at the moment, his are less exposed along the top and bottom.

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414142
Move 8. JB has just played B5, and I'm starting to feel less confident now that we're playing out towards the edges. I'm wondering about A6, but then that leaves me quite exposed along row 4.

F6 would be a seriously bad move. The only real alternative looks like D7: split him up the middle. :)

Watch the game to see which move I go for.

Luke Skywalker: Oh... I didn't realize that. That is a bummer. But don't worry, we'll note the moves for everyone. :-P
JB

John Baker: Well, I do all sorts of funny things and would be happy to compare timestamps, unfortunately they are only available for the last move.

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414141
The non-traditional game isn't following any popular move sequence [anymore] that I know of. At this point (move 6), it's just a matter of setting up for later, the process for which changes with every move my opponent makes. I'll be trying to keep a minimum number of pieces on the board, so as to gain the advantage of the "powerful few." I'm assuming my worthy opponent will now be trying to do the same... should be interesting. :-)

http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414142
This game is following a popular move sequence for the time being. We're on move 5, and soon we will get to the point where our game becomes unique from any other reversi game ever played.

Luke Skywalker: What... You don't want to compare the timestamps on our posts to the timestamps on the moves? lol -jk Yeah, we'll refer to move numbers so others can look back and follow along.
John Baker

I'm interested in reading the comments, but I'm unable to follow in "real time". Please annotate your comments with move numbers, so that it is possible to follow the discussion later.

Non-traditional: http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414141

I never play this kind of opening, so I'm playing by feel right from the start. Move 3 was a bit of a guess; I just predicted JB's available moves and decided that the move I made was the "least worst".

The games have begun!

The non-traditional opening is here: http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414141 (what are the odds of getting that game number lol)

The traditional opening is here: http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1414142

We are in our first opening moves now, so any comments or questions (directed at either player) are now welcome.

John Baker

John Baker: Yes, that sound great :D
And making games not counting doesn't make them invisible, you have to do that explicitly. So it's perfect like it is now!

I sent the invitations. I'm black in one and white in the other. I also chose to make the games uncounted. I hope this doesn't make them invisible to other players. I don't think it will.
One of us will post links to the games once they're started. Let's start one with the standard (diagonal) opening and the other with the non-standard (parallel) opening.
Sound good?

Mr. Shumway: Actually, you had a good point. Since we'll be discussing the games as they are played, we'll be flirting with a violation of rules. I read somewhere that you're not supposed to discuss games in progress, since such discussions can give aid to one player. It might just be the safer route to play unrated games. Besides, I'm not doing this for the ratings. So anyway, let's get this underway. I'll make the invitations in a moment.

gborland: sorry

Mr. Shumway: I was just joking. I'm happy to play rated games. :)

gborland: Why don't you play unrated games?

John Baker: I'd enjoy watching them and reading your comments! But I don't know if i can participate in a discussion :)

John Baker: The only caveat is you'll have to let me win at least one game, as I'll be sacrificing my BKR for the greater good. ;)

gborland: Sounds good. Would anyone be interested in watching and discussing the games? I'd hate to end up talking to the air. :-P
I know gborland and these games will go much faster.

John Baker: I'll give it a go if you like?

It seems my effort to show some examples of strategies in the previously mentioned games isn't working as efficiently as I had hoped. At this rate, the games will take the next 6 months to complete. Are people still interested in watching a couple of games as they progress, and reading my commentary on the moves? If so, is there anyone who would like to play a couple of games that we would discuss on this board and hopefully learn from? I think I could learn something from the experience as well and it might be fun. :-)
Anyone?
John Baker

February 11th-12th Cambridge International (EGP)
http://www.britishothello.org.uk/cambridgeinternational.html

March 4th-5th Barcelona International (EGP)
http://www.reversies.net

March 25th-26th Amsterdam (Hoorn) International (EGP)

For anyone who enjoys a face paced tourney.. Please.. I wish to offer it to those who will play continuously.. not just one turn a day ..

°°·.,,.·°¤`'¤¸`°´`°«*Scarlets Springtime Follies*»¸.¤°´`°'¤¸¤´¤°·.,,.·°°

For those who would like to see another great example of my strategy at work, check out this game: http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=1159134&i=5
The link takes you to the beginning of the game (standard opening), and you can click through the moves and see how it goes. I'd be willing to answer any questions about specific moves if you have them.
Props to nobody24 for providing such a great teaching tool. Thank you!
John Baker

John Baker: sorry for the slow speed ... completely my fault .. i will see if i can speed it up a bit .. i am finishing some backgammon games lately .. so i should have some more time :)

(plus: as john limits my choices i will move faster as well :))

i am always in the dark in the earlier stage of the 8x8 games ... the real action is too far away yet for me to know if what i am doing now will be good or bad :)

Standard: http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1119548 Still following "normal" opening procedures. Nothing worth noting yet, unless someone else sees something I'm neglecting.

Straight: http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1119549 Hrqls is trying to minimize his pieces already. I haven't really thought about it yet. I'm just trying to make moves that don't capture too many at a time and give Hrqls plenty of opportunity to capture mine.

To those of you who are following along, I'm sorry the games are taking so long to get underway. Hopefully they'll speed up as we go. :-)

John Baker

Hello,

I created a new Reversi Tournament for all players.
This tournament is addressed to the players who can play at least a
move per day.

Limit of registration: October 28

If you are interested, register you at
http://brainking.com/fr/Tournaments?trg=11934&tri=64780&trnst=0


Greetings

jolat

John Baker: *nod* the start in this way always seems to be the same in the diagonal start

in the straight start i went with the tactic of getting as many 'inner pieces' as possible without creating a frontier (as was explained to me before in a reversi fellowship) .. if i cant find an inner piece i will usually go for a corner stone of the inner sqaure (for example C6) .. which is usually what i end up doing in the diagonal start .. i dont know if thats good though .. it just feels right .. but i try not to build that inner corner into a frontier

The games have reached the point where it starts to be worthwile to watch.
http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1119548 This one is the standard or diagonal start. All moves available to Hrqls at this point (for move 3) are the same. It doesn't matter where he moves; my response will be the same. The next half dozen moves will probably follow standard published openings. I'll say something if we deviate.
http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1119549 This one is the non-standard or straight start. I chose my starting move (move 3) simply because I find it easier to dominate by going diagonal, therefore I went straight, in hopes that Hrqls will take the diagonal and end up dominating (for now). ;-) I haven't had much luck finding published openings for this start, but the same concepts apply here as in the diagonal start.

all: argh! spectators :)
(Just kidding :))

1 diagonal start and 1 straight start is ok with me .. i dont think there is much of a difference though .. but maybe i am missing something as there is a tournament right now in which the participants have to start diagonal

(in 6x6 it doesnt make a difference after the first next move has been made, or it must be the only possible different move which is quite bad i think :))

btw sorry in advance for my slow playing .. new function at work (project leader, managment, instead of software engineer) .. takes quite some time .. and i somehow ended up joining far too many bg tournaments once again :)

but i will try my best to move as fast as possible and still be able to think my moves through :)

Luke Skywalker: Since this board doesn't get that much use otherwise, I'll make the comments here and I'll try to remember to reference move numbers and which game I'm speaking of.

John Baker: I'm also interested. but observers don't see the game comments, so could you please make them available (when the games are finished). And, in order to correlate the comments with the games, please always add the move number (the system adds the time, but it can't be correlated to moves later on).

John Baker: Thanks :-)

gborland: Here are the two games:
http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1119548
http://brainking.com/en/ShowGame?g=1119549

Hrqls: Yes, I suppose it doesn't matter much where the "few" are located. After using the strategy for a while you'll get a feel for where might be a good place to establish them in each game you play. Even when I play the same opponent over and over, I end up using different approaches each time, depending on how it shapes up.
Btw, let's make one game open standard (diagonal) and the other non-standard. It'll give those watching examples of each.