The Col: What? The king of KFC admits to loving Chinese food? Scandalous!

Does Mrs KFC know about this?

Artful Dodger: Yeah, and one of those voices is me. But who are the other two? I thought it was just you and me.

Artful Dodger: I think you're right. But it can only be traced back through the aliens involvement. They are controling Obama, Obama controls Holder, and Bush controls the aliens. They control me too, but for some reason contact with them has been broken... I woke up this morning with a headache, like my head was in a meatgrinder. After the headache goes away contact will be re-established and I will deny everything.

Artful Dodger: "How about that Fast and Furious scandal?"

Scandal? What scandal? If it can't be blamed on Bush, then it can't be a scandal... it never happened. What are you talking about?

JungleBurger: If Art is driving his cab right now, I don't want him to reply. I want him to keep his eyes on the road. I don't want him getting us BOTH killed. :p

JungleBurger: Did you not get the memo? Art is supposed to BE me. Or do you not believe that? :)

The Col:

" Why are God believers so consumed with atheism? "

Sometimes I wonder the same about atheism believers. If it weren't for us, there would be no atheists.

Here on the planet earth, we call them "Doctors".

Artful Dodger: That other dimension we can't access, at the moment, is something I'm sure isn't factored into String theory. I don't really care if it is or not... I don't store my personal beliefs on the same shelf with the toys I play with.

I don't know if anyone else is going to weigh in on this, so instead of waiting for something that may not happen, I'll just go ahead and tell you what my answer is.

A three dimensional object has length, width, and depth. A two dimensional object would only have length and width, which means it has zero depth. Without that third dimensional depth, a two dimensional object could only exist as a plane bordered by a line made up of imaginary points. With no depth at all, the two dimensional 'object' cannot exist as an object, because the line made up of imaginary points doesn't actually exist. It is imaginary.

Here's the bit you might like, because it's something I didn't know until you told me about it a few years back. You told me about irreducible complexity. The principle of irreducible complexity shows that physical reality is dependant on all three dimensions existing at the same time, otherwise no physical reality can exist. There may only be three, but it can't be reduced from that.

Artful Dodger:

"Anyone who has seen my posts over the years know that my knowledge on science has a low threshold. I can't even follow your posts on science. YOu'd think that would be enough of a clue."

It could be clue, but that assumes they know how to go about looking for clues. But it's not really a clue, because you apparently have the brainpower to understand anything I might understand. If I seem to know more about science it's because I probably have more of an interest in it. The past me 'worshiped' science, which means I thought it was the most important thing anyone could be interested in.

The real difference between us is what floats our particular boats.

The people claiming I'm you posing as me are doing this because you and I are obviously friends, and any friend of yours is automatically an enemy of theirs. In their minds I don't even think it matters if we are the same person or not, they won't let it go for no other reason than to give you a hard time.

Anyway, here's an example of what I mean about science. You've probably heard about the possibility of extra dimensions. String theory needs extra dimensions in order for the theory to maintain its internal consistency, but that's another story.

So anyway, whether or not there are extra physical dimensions beyond the three we know about (because we can see and feel them), do you think it is possible for any kind of two dimensional reality to exist?

by the way, Uber and V are more than welcome to answer and give their reasons.

(V): " Is this sure fire cure for headaches the one you use? "

No, and for good reason. It can only be used once, but it's almost 100% effective. I say 'almost' because there is a small chance of survival.

Actually, I was just checking to see if you were reading my messages, or could somehow divine them without looking.

(V):

Logic is a good tool. But it's not a perfect tool. You can start with a solid premise, proceed with flawless logic, and still come up with a wrong answer. I suspect you might argue with the word 'wrong', but this has been tested and proven to be true long before I was born. A wrong outcome can usually be attributed to a flawed premise, but not always.

" Pure philosophical logic knows nothing and yet knows everything... "

Oh come on, admit it... you pulled that one out of a fortune cookie.

(V): Mints are good. I found one on my pillow once at a ritzy hotel. Did those guys who went to Japan make any more of those? If not, then logic dictates that the mint I found on my pillow had to have been the very same one they made in Japan.

By the way, if you suffer from headaches, I know about a sure fire cure...

The Col: No, my "rebirth" wasn't as dramatic as that. But since there are no coconuts growing over my bed, one falling on my head would have definitely caused me to sit up and take notice.

(V): " who says there are only two options? "

I don't know.. who said that? I believe what I said was 'so here are our options'. I'll have to go back and look, but I'm pretty sure that's what I said. Just because I was focused on what I believe were the relevant options, that doesn't exclude the existence of options that are not relevant.

I still don't know why you think I was talking about worshiping a shrine. A shrine is built to house something that is worshiped, the shrine itself is not built to be the object of worship. The evidence of what I actually said is what you put in your own subject heading. So lift up thine eyes, and gaze upon what you put into your own subject heading.

" Just showing a mark of respect to someone who helped save lives and 'invented' the ideas behind modern computing. "

I see. So it's not to honor the man, it's just a mark of respect... ?

On another point, is it your opinion that computers are NOT tools?

Artful Dodger: Remember when Obama slammed people who "cling to their guns and to their religion"? I thought it was the guns he mostly had a problem with. Apparently not.

(V): " No-one mentioned worshipping a 'shrine' "

That's true, because I didn't say anyone was worshiping a shrine.

Artful Dodger: I still don't know what the rationale behind walking weapons across the boarder was supposed to accomplish. We wanted drug lords and other criminals to have these weapons because... ? I can't get past the because. It's like, say, you have a headache, so someone tells you to put your head in a meat grinder and turn the handle, because...

Doesn't matter 'why' you should do it, because you shouldn't do it... it's a bad idea. They've been trying to get Holder to talk about this for over a year, but the guy has been able to stonewall them for, what has it been, 18 months now? And barely a peep about it from the major news outlets.

I know what Holder should say. He should say, "Well, it seemed like a good idea at the time."

Artful Dodger: "As you can see, my games are down to 8 and I've played here a lot less. Coincidentally, you showed up shortly after my regular attendance here declined. The theorists here will use their logic skill and make their usual conclusion."

I assumed there were maybe two or three people here giving you a hard time over this. Are there more than that? Other than getting a few strange pms last year, I haven't heard about this except from you. Are you hearing about it at other boards, or in private messages?

"BTW, I'm not even sure I know what he means by biological mechanics."

I don't know either, but it is laugh worthy. I think maybe he lost track of his straw men, and what they are supposed to represent. His 'crazy notions' of what Christians believe is fun to watch. If what he meant by biological mechanics is what I think he meant, then... naw, I'll just wait for him to explain it. He said it, he can explain it.. maybe.

Iamon lyme: oops, correction:

I said [ I didn't distinguish between what I wanted to believe and reality.. which is another way of saying I wasn't being honest with myself. Of course, atheists don't do this because they are honest intellectuals who need our help to understand how dangerous it is to not believe as they do. ]

What I meant to say was [ I didn't distinguish between what I wanted to believe and reality.. which is another way of saying I wasn't being honest with myself. Of course, atheists don't do this because they are honest intellectuals, and we need their help to understand how dangerous it is to not believe as they do. ]

I really should look these over BEFORE sending them, instead of after.

Artful Dodger: yeah, the fishing hole..

you read my mind..

Say,do you smoke? Mind if I step out for one? I'll try not to inhale too deeply, if you agree to cut back on.. hhhhhm, seems I know less about you than you thought you did..

Artful Dodger: No, wait a minute. I may have been gone six months, but I still remember you telling me that I know more stuff than you do. I told YOU that you're smarter than me, so if you say I know more stuff then who am I to argue? I remembered that because of it's flawless logic.. it forms a perfectly flawless circle.

So there...

did I just tell myself off? Oh well, if I did then I probably deserved it.

JungleBurger: What do I care if I haven't read the books.

Do you mean, what do I care what C. S. Lewis would say if I didn't read his books?

Care about what? Sorry, need more info to understand your question.

Artful Dodger: Shorter? How could you know you are shorter than me if you aren't me? And how do you know I'm not bald? Who are you really?

Oh crap, now I'M becoming confused. How do we, I mean I, oh crap.. how are YOU going to untangle this?

The Col: Thanks for the warning. Maybe JB doesn't know that... I still say it sounds like a vegans answer to the hamburger. You know, a hamburger with everything, but hold the meat patty. Actually sounds like a tasty meal. I could always heat up a meat patty later in the evening.. after dark.. in the light of a full moon.

JungleBurger: I haven't read any of his books. I don't know why, because everytime I see him quoted I like what he has to say. I also liked the Narnia movies, and saw part of a play based on the Screw tape letters.

Artful Dodger: I was hoping that hadn't changed. I enjoyed being you before I left to be me for awhile, but it's not easy being me so it's nice to be back where anything I say can be blamed on YOU!

JungleBurger: []_ [[]] []_

My nic says I am only me. Don't let the spacing confuse you. If your nic is none of my business, then how can something as personal as a belief in God be any of yours? hhhm?

sorry, but I don't assume every friendly face I see rests upon a friendly head.

JungleBurger: I say a lot of stuff that's been said before. I'm starting to wonder if there is anything that has never been said.

You strike me as someone who was maybe raised in a particular denomination, but doesn't quite buy into it. You refered to God as him or her. If I refered to you as either being a him or a her, would you be able to tell me if it was one or the other? The reason I ask is because someone who doesn't believe in His existence will assume any discussion of him is like doing thought experiments. Like, "hhhhmmm I wonder how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"

I'm not really picking on you, just trying to understand where you are coming from. There are so called Christian priests and theologins who don't know if there really is a God or not, and it's never occured to them to open that door I mentioned before. Everyone acts on faith, every day. It just takes more faith to peek around some corners than it does to, say, believe gravity will always achor you to the earth and not take a day off from doing that.

A better example is explorers who go places no one has been to before. It's easier to believe what you see every day than to believe in the existence of someplace you (personally) have never gone to.

JungleBurger: The answer to your question was in the statement above it. I believed whatever I wanted to believe.

I didn't distinguish between what I wanted to believe and reality.. which is another way of saying I wasn't being honest with myself. Of course, atheists don't do this because they are honest intellectuals who need our help to understand how dangerous it is to not believe as they do. That was a mouthful, try saing that after taking a big bite from your Jungle Burger! No no no, just kidding! If you do that you'll get Jungle Burger all over your keyboard.

JungleBurger: You still haven't answered my question. Why did you ask me if I wrote what I wrote? I obviously 'wrote' it, I'm the only one sitting here writing this stuff, so it's obvious that you meant something else. by the way, if you don't want to answer that, then no worries about that from me either. ;)

What is a Jungle Burger? I'm just guessing here, but are you a vegetarian? Or vegan? Is that why it's call "Jungle"?

You ask what made me think He exists. That is not an easy one to answer. I asked Him, "If you exist then let me know." He let me know. There is no way I can prove that to you, so it's really not an answer you can hang your hat on.

Sometimes you have to believe there could be something on the other side of a door, otherwise why would anyone bother to open it? See what I mean?

The Col: I'm not being hard on myself. I can talk about the past me and be honest about him, because I'm not him anymore. The past me believed whatever he wanted to believe. He would have voted for Obama, and based on nothing more than liking his style. The right side of my brain believed I was an intellectual because that's what I wanted to believe. If the left side of my brain objected to anything I would just ignore it.

I would like to believe that all changed due to age and experience, and maybe that contributes to the change, but experience tells me otherwise.

I'm not an unhappy guy. If anything, I'm a little bit too happy.. ha ha

The Col: So are you saying belief in God is a choice? If God doesn't exist, then he doesn't need to be your cup of tea. If He does exist, you can't just will him away and pretend he either doesn't exist or He only exists in a form your imagination allows.

If you are convinced that he doesn't exist, as I did at one time, I wouldn't even bother talking to someone like me. My past me wouldn't give the present me the time of day. I don't respond to things I don't believe exist.

JungleBurger: I was just going to say yes. I suppose that's all I would have had to say. But I wanted to know why you were asking.

JungleBurger: Did I write it? Yes, I wrote it.

Do you mean to ask if this is a quote I pulled from somewhere? No. I just sat down and wrote it. (V) inspired it, so I guess he's entitled to some credit.
Hip Hip Hurrah! Way to go (V)!

In fact, now that I think about, I could write a book based on the theology of atheism. I'll call it Lord of the Tools. Don't need to send it to a publisher, I'll just send it out telepathically. The aliens showed me how to do that. They are controling me, and Bush controls them, so it really IS all his fault!

ohhhhhhh, I'm having too much fun with this, I need to go take a nap. This place is addicting.

The Col: Most atheists do not know what worship is. That is why they are able to direct worship at an object that necessarily honors them instead of God. They become the objects of their own worship, but like I say, since they aren't very clear on what worship actually is, they can easily dismiss the idea they are directing any kind of worship towards anything. When you find youself worshiping your own creation (a tool for instance) then you are actually just worshipiing yourself.

Übergeek 바둑이: I was contrasting one belief with another. I thought that was obvious.

If you think my idea of what atheists believe is a straw man argument, you have no where to go with that... because if you were being honest about it, you would see it as one straw man army opposing another. Frankly, I'm tired of listening to people who do not believe in God telling Christians what they think, when it's obvious to most Christians that what they are hearing is nonsense.

If it don't look like a duck, walk like a duck, or sound like a duck, then it's probably not a duck.

Here's a crazy notion. What does it mean when men build a shrine devoted to worshiping a tool? Any new technologies, advanced or not, are just that.. they are tools. They are not gods.

So, in the absence of a God who would have created everything and everyone, who or what exactly are these men worshiping? The tool they made a shrine to, or themselves?

So, depending on whether you believe in God or not, here are our options... we can worship a God who created us in His image, or we can be the gods who create tools in our image.

Hey, relax! I'm just telling you what the aliens told me. Don't shoot the messenger!

Artful Dodger: Am I still you, or have "they" given up on that?

Was abducted.. again! the only thing that's changed is that the aliens no longer probe their abducties. Now they sit you down at a small table and make you answer multiple choice questions. They insist you pick an answer, but sometimes none of the answers are right. that was torture. I'd rather be probed! Well, no. Actually, I wouldn't.

V said on the previous page: "What gets me is this crazy Christian notion that denies the bilogical mechanics of humans."

He's right, you know. That is a pretty crazy notion.

I like this site. It helps me to unwind.

Been gone since Nov or Dec, came back once to see that I'd timed out in all my games. I didn't die or anything like that, was just busy and extremely tired. So anyway, been looking over the relatively newer posts (this page and the one before it), and honestly, if it wasn't for the time stamps and some reactions to current events, it's just like I never left.

still trying to un-invent the gun? seriously?

[]_ [[]] []_

Artful Dodger: טז לֹא-תֵלֵךְ רָכִיל בְּעַמֶּיךָ, לֹא תַעֲמֹד עַל-דַּם רֵעֶךָ: אֲנִי," יְהוָה."

Ah yes, how could we ever forget... that?

The parallel between Obama/Cain and Carter/Reagan seems to be holding as well. Cain is shaping up to be as unassailable as Reagan was, when nothing untrue could be made to stick to him. I have a good feeling about Cain, as long as Republicans don't choose the Democrats favorite Republican running for office. There is a good reason for the elephant to be the animal representing the republican party.. elephants have long memories... I hope most republicans haven't forgotten that.

Artful Dodger: Hey Art, does this recent so called sex scandal manufactured by Democrats against Herman Cain remind you of another black republican who had to weather a similar attack before he could be confirmed as a Supreme Court judge? And do you think those same Democrats would be bright enough to sift through the clues I just gave as to who that black republican was (and still is)?

I'm thinking that as incentive for coming forward, the people behind finding these women have perhaps pointed out how the Supreme Court judges accuser was rewarded with a teaching position... teaching law, at the University level. Probably a course in ethics, because that would complete the picture of a world turned completely upside down.

Artful Dodger: lol Yeah, the honeymoon is definitely over, and hopefully by next year the marriage as well. Hey AD, if I promise to give you something, will you send me $489,998.00 post haste? The only hitch is I can't tell what you'll get until you send the money... and maybe not even then.

I'm not worried about this proposal sounding stupid, because it's exactly the kind of specious, promise of hoping for something to change that many people fell for. As far as Obama is concerned, it was our responsibility to figure out just what it was we were supposed to be hoping for.

He never specified what we were supposed to hope would change, he never said. Now we know. And now he's got me hoping for some truly radical change, like tort reform and tax reform, and someone who won't just say he will defend and abide by the constitution, but actually do it.

Artful Dodger: Let me guess... the alchemists are bringing the refreshments... because they're alchemists?

I don't know if I can stand one more year of this %#*^!!& poop!

Dark Prince: Maybe not socialism per se, but I believe we do disagree about the proper role of government. Keeping up roads and bridges is the governments responsibility, since everyone uses (directly and indirectly) roads and bridges. Health care is primarily a personal responsibilty. The argument that people who are not insured but are taken care of anyway has nothing to do with it. Hospitals have often absorbed the cost of saving someones life and not gotten payed for it. I don't want someone from a state agency standing over me to make sure I eat my lima beans, brush my teeth, and not smoke cigarettes. I like lima beans, wear dentures, and have no immediate plans to quit smoking, so I don't need a nanny.. unless she's pretty, then I'll think about it.

Capitalism is already subject to regulation, and for the reasons you just stated. Are you saying that regulation doesn't go far enough? More to the point, how much regulation would you feel is too much?

Dark Prince: Why should the means of producing and distributing goods be owned collectively or by a centralized government? If you don't need a middle man telling you what to do and how to do it, because you are already doing it, then why give a third party a piece of your action? Protection money? To avoid future shakedowns? Do you like the idea of a nanny state controling every aspect of your life? I suppose it's okay for the "nannys"... not so good for everyone else. I could understand the appeal of socialism if I had an aversion to making decisions regarding business and personal matters.

My point about Castro was, I thought, self evident. If I was him I would make sure I had the best medical care possible, but apparently the finest Universities and Colleges in Cuba couldn't produce a doctor good enough to do the job.

Capitalism doesn't need to be socially engineered. It has always been the natural way of doing things. People began specializing in one particular area and then trading with people who specialized in other areas. Bartering was replaced with coin and paper transfers that made the system move more efficiently, and the rest is history. All socialism does is to fix what isn't broken and cause the development of better technology to come to a grinding halt. As bad as things are right now I'm still better off as a proor man in the U.S. than a king was in his cold dank castle a thousand years ago.

Artful Dodger: I like Cain. I like anyone who doesn't talk nonsense.

Dark Prince: spend money to employ people to do what? Maybe create new government jobs? We obviously don't have enough of those. If we did, then everyone could be employed.

We are already playing with the concept of diminishing returns, making it possible for there to be less and less money to go around. But we can't keep that up forever.

The only way socialism is able to do anything is to insert itself into a normally functioning society by convincing people that they need a small elite group of people (them) to micro manage their lives for them. When I say everyone suffers when productivity is controlled instead of encouraged, I am not exagerating. Castro would have died if he hadn't sent for a doctor outside of Cuba. His own doctor botched the opperation. Think about it.

Dark Prince: Overheard at a meeting of Spendaholics Anonymous: "Hello, my name is Barack Obama, and George Bush is a spendaholic."