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8. september 2009, 16:43:01
Übergeek 바둑이 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Pedro Martínez:

> "Rights" are those entitlements that cannot exist without a corresponding duty
> of the state - e.g. the right to healthcare requires the state to provide the healthcare.
> Or the right to fair trial requires the state to take such measures as to guarantee the
> fair trial. On the other hand, "freedoms" are immanent within every citizen and they
> exist regardless of what the state does. Such as the freedom of speech, or the
> freedom of religion.

In other words, we are down to legal semantics.

I could rephrase things a little:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

"A healthy population, being necessary to the well-being of a free nation, the right of the People to healthcare, shall not be infringed."

The first statement is acceptable as a "freedom" because anyone can keep and bear a weapon, regardless of what the state does, and the state has no right to take away that freedom.

The second statement is unacceptable because the state would be responsible in ensuring that everyone receives healthcare.

Then similar arguments can be made about education. Legally speaking, the state is not required to provide education in the US. This is a quote of the Republican campaign platform of 1996:

"The Federal government has no constitutional authority to be involved in school curricula or to control jobs in the market place. This is why we will abolish the Department of Education, end federal meddling in our schools, and promote family choice at all levels of learning."

Ronald Reagan promised to dimsantle the Department of Education in the 1980s (the Democrats blocked that), and to George W. Bush's credit, he refused to implement the Republican platform of dismantling that department.

However, by Pedro's argument, since education is an "entitlement", the state should not be required to provide it and the Reagan administration was justified in wanting to dismantle the federal system of education and let individual families decide when and where education would happen. If the poor happened to have no money for it, it would be their problem, just as with healthcare.

Since a person can choose any healthcare they want according to its affordability, why should there be restrictions on which gun a person can buy. If a person can afford a fully automatic assault weapon, why restrict purchasing those. Sarah Palin is right in wanting to remove the ban on automatic assault rifles. If I can afford it, why should I not be able to buy it?

Then the letter of the law should be applied. If a person is not enrolled in a well-regulated militia, should they be free to own a gun? Then all those not in a militia should give up their guns!

Interpreting legal semantics is a tricky thing, obviously.

8. september 2009, 21:07:43
Czuch 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Übergeek 바둑이: the right of the People to healthcare, shall not be infringed.


Well, fine then.... but the government does not provide us all with guns, free or otherwise..... and we have no "right" that says they have to provide us with health care either.

8. september 2009, 21:44:40
Mort 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Czuch: What i don't get is that you say the government run clinics are fine, yet you object to them!!

Politics (Czuch, 2009-07-27 13:08:17)

I quote.. "Lack of health insurance does NOT equal lack of health care, not in the US anyway!"

and ...."..have no confidence that the government health care will do any better than the US postal service when it comes to competing with private industry..."

So, are you saying, or not saying that the gov is perfectly capable of running a health system?

8. september 2009, 22:11:03
Universal Eyes 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
(V): What about home care.Do you feel the same?

8. september 2009, 23:11:04
Mort 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Universal Eyes: Let me put it this way... Over here one council cancelled the warden system for it's sheltered OAP accommodation. Those that moved there understanding they would have a warden now found that service cancelled, and the ability to live where they were in some cases severely impaired to the point that some had to go into care homes.

One supporter of this move complained about wardens helping old folk out of hours.

I didn't know caring was a crime these days.

9. september 2009, 00:51:23
Czuch 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
(V): Let me clarify to, that a lot of the "FREE" care that people with no health coverage gets is recieved from private health providers but is paid for from higher fees to those with health coverage, and NOT from the government. Which might seem bad at first glance, but to me it is better to have people who use the services cover instead of the government taking from me to pay for the uncovered.

Like they do for education, even though I have never had any children, my government still takes my money to pay for it

9. september 2009, 01:04:43
Vikings 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Czuch: check your property tax breakdown, 6 1/2% of mine goes to a hospital that is the main stop for the uninsured

9. september 2009, 01:15:27
Czuch 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Vikings: ahhhhh..... well, at least it isnt all going to the education of kids I dont have....


...and V, before you say anything..... I do understand that a healthy, well educated population is a good thing for our country, even at the expense of those with no kids or who use very little medical services.

9. september 2009, 01:20:32
Vikings 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Czuch: oh, I'll bet there is the highest percentage going to the school district, mine is

9. september 2009, 01:21:02
Czuch 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
(V): Maybe with your vast educational and reading experience you can answer me this question.....


(I know you dont like hypothetical) But lets assume that the whole world were united under one system similar to the UK.... the middle class gets bigger, the poor gets smaller, as do the wealthy.... over time we are all pretty much middle class, right? Then what? When Paul is gone, who do you rob to pay Peter? Once there are no more poor people and no more rich people, then what?

9. september 2009, 10:13:24
Mort 
Onderwerp: Re: ver time we are all pretty much middle class, right?
Czuch: Wrong. It'll never happen, companies would have to be gone as such. And I cannot see any reason why that would happen.

9. september 2009, 13:08:05
Czuch 
Onderwerp: Re: ver time we are all pretty much middle class, right?
(V): Well it seems the goal to me.... make everyone the same/ equal.... all the same care and education etc, and pay for it from taxing the wealthy, and then the wealthy are not so and the poor are not so.... you tell me where it all leads then?

9. september 2009, 15:40:26
Mort 
Onderwerp: Re: Well it seems the goal to me.... make everyone the same/ equal.... all the same care and education etc, and pay for it from taxing the wealthy, and then the wealthy are not so and the poor are not so.
Czuch: Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense. People here still fight to goto certain universities and colleges. I believe alot of Americans get scholarships at Oxford and Cambridge don't they? Rowing and all. Certain colleges specialise in certain fields or, have special depts that reflect the demand for specific skills in that area. We have Private and Public schools, Boarding schools, etc as the need and dedication arises.

We have national Private Health companies.. over 50 off them... not thousands.. All that complexity and having to monitor them.. that's why they want you HR Republicans to support them. NHS trusts that cover counties, live medical record systems so doc's can see each others notes to make better decisions. Private works with Public. And from only 32p per day.. Just about $200. But complaints have been filed regarding over pricing against some companies... such is a matter of trading standards and possible court.

And no... No elites, wages are set, limits and all by government in the NHS. Doesn't mean rubbish pay, doc's here can easily earn $200K+

9. september 2009, 00:40:14
Czuch 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
(V): I am saying that we already do have some government PAID health care, but the treatment is from the same private care that insurance people use. (except some veterans care and some others)

So, yes of course the government is perfectly capable of paying for my health care, but I do not have any confidence in them running the whole health care industry or them running their own version of it and to compete with private health care. But if they want to try that, then fine, just like the postal service sucks, so will their health programs.

But in general, I am against socialism for America, and my main focus is to keep us from bleeding to death one cut at a time from more and more bits of socialized programs being implemented.

9. september 2009, 10:04:01
Mort 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Czuch: In some respects Czuch, your constitution contains socialist (of a type) values..

btw.. Are you trying to tell me that the Republican mind still thinks in McCarthy style ways? I thought that horror died decades ago, and further died when the Berlin wall fell (as in the end of the cold war)...

Why can't you do as we.. private and public working side by side?

9. september 2009, 13:12:29
Czuch 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
(V): Why can't you do as we.. private and public working side by side?



We already do... but that is not the end game, the end game is just a swap of power from private elites to public elites, in the end the people are still beholden....

8. september 2009, 22:07:44
Universal Eyes 
Onderwerp: Re: If bearing arms is a right, should healthcare be a right too?
Czuch: That would be opening up the door for lawsuits.

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